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Answering Weaker Arguments for Atheism

The following I mean in the most charitable way possible. I am sure many atheists who say these things are well-meaning. The following arguments which I will debunk are simply the ones atheists usually only use as standalone arguments if they are amateurs at this thing (while an experienced atheist debater, in my opinion, would first bring up different ones).

“Atheism isn’t a claim, since we are not believing in something. I do not need a reason for not believing in God.”

This is an attempt at re-defining atheism. Traditionally, the question in mind has always been: Does God exist? The theist says: yes. The atheist says: no. The agnostic says: I could not say, sir. There may be such a Power beyond us and there may not. The agnostic says this, of course, in an English accent, copying Jeeves’ accent particularly. To say that there is no God is a claim, a very great one at that. Do atheists have to produce evidence of their own that there specifically is no God? Not exactly, but they must show all theistic arguments to be inconclusive. Atheists sometimes insist that no one can really “prove” the existence of God. First of all, what is it to prove? Should we be ninety percent sure? Ninety-five? Ninety-nine? Second, he still brings forth a very big claim. An atheist who says this must debunk the arguments from cause, motion, necessity, design, perfection, Absolute Goods, and miracles. Otherwise, although theists have the burden of proof, they have given it. For instance, technically those who believe in the moon landing technically have the burden of proof, but we might still ask why someone does not, as the apparent evidence is so obvious.

“There are so many gods in which people believe: Vishnu, Zeus, Apollo, Ra, Aton, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and others, along with Christ. I therefore only believe in one less god than you do.”

Actually, this is not true. For one thing, we are arguing particularly for the monotheistic God, which limits things very much. Still, this is not a good reason to be an atheist. Most scholars think Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare’s plays, but people are not of one mind. So imagine if someone were to say: “Well, some people deeply believe that Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare’s plays, and others Christopher Marlowe and still others Edward de Vere or Sir Francis Bacon. Now I will believe that no one wrote Shakespeare’s plays. See, I believe in only one less playwright than anyone else.” This argument obviously is absurd. Obviously someone must have written Shakespeare’s plays since they exist. So also someone must have made the universe by the very fact that it does exist, although precisely who did it is disputed. An atheist would say that we know playwrights exist but we do not know God exists. However, that is not the point and this argument therefore does not affect the original question at hand. Furthermore, the scholars, when they decide who wrote Shakespeare’s plays, do not arbitrarily choose someone (usually William Shakespeare), but they pick which one is most credible. Hence I pick Christ.

“It is true that many things about the universe are unknown, but this is hardly a reason to suppose, since you cannot explain everything yet, that God must have done it.”

This last one is an appeal to the so-called “God-in-the-gaps” fallacy. The problem is that this disproves atheism just as much. A claim is falsifiable if evidence can be presented to disprove it. For instance, evolutionary theory could be falsified by the discovery of modern animals that were fossilized in ancient rock layers. The belief that that the Gospel of John was not written until the year 150 A.D. or later was falsified by the discovery of manuscript P52 of the Gospel of John, which is dated to the early second century. So scientifically speaking, for atheism to be falsified, we must prove that God exists. But even if some spectacular miracle with God appearing in the sky were to occur, this could be considered a “God in the gaps”. I am willing to bet that before long skeptics would just say that it was a result of mass hysteria, partly because miracles so spectacular have occurred at other times and they have said the same. Obviously in this case if a saint were to miraculously heal a leper, the claim that we do not know how he did it does not follow that God did it, according to the same premises. In this case, no amount of evidence can really falsify the “God in the gaps” objection. As noted, the claim “There is no God” is an actual claim which can be falsified in spite of the fact that it is a negative, just as the view “There are no aliens” can be falsified.

By The Chivalric Apologist

Hello, I am the Chivalric Catholic or the Catholic of Honor. I conform all my beliefs to the Magisterium founded by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. The short explanation of who I am is a teenager with nostalgia for the Middle Ages. I have a love for apologetics, honor, and literature (especially adventures). I believe it is important and honorable to respect my opponents in this. If anything I write is contrary to the Faith (after all, I have no degrees) please write to me and inform me.

298 replies on “Answering Weaker Arguments for Atheism”

As usual, a well-researched, carefully written post.

I believe it is in the cathedral in Chartres, France, that the following quote was found :
‘To those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no explanation is possible.’

Our faith in our Lord is given to us as a gift, and it is a precious gift indeed.
However, we also view examples of atheists becoming believers. I think the apostle Paul is a great example of conversion. (although he had faith in God the Father).

Let us pray for atheists to come to know our Lord.

‘ I once was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see.’

Greetings to you on Divine Mercy Sunday. ⚘🤗

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Some Prayers on Divine Mercy Sunday, It is good to answer those ones, because you are right most people will simply latch on to a few ideas like the above as a justification to hold a belief for an entirely different reason. When someone can show that the above reasons are wrong at least it helps the person understand that others know the real reason the are atheists is not as intellectual as they may want it to seem.

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“Not exactly, but they must show all theistic arguments to be inconclusive. ”

and we have. No religion can show taht their gods exists or the events supposedly caused by their gods happened. You also must show that every other god doesn’t exist, since you want to claim only yours exists.

“o also someone must have made the universe by the very fact that it does exist, although precisely who did it is disputed.”

nope, no need for a creator. The laws of physics seem to have that covered and they can be as eternal as your supposed god. That you can’t show your god exists or that it was the creator is notable. You also can’t show that beleive in one god is better than believe in many. You just claim it is without evidence.

the claims about fatima cannot be shown to be a miracle. Now, if a Christian could do what the bible promises and heal an amputee, you might have something. But its no surprise that there are no prosthetics left at Lourdes. You cannot show that miracles occur.

That Christians can’t agree on what their god wants, and you all spend millions in trying to convert each other is quite a tell that you are all making nonsense up.

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Thanks for the comment.

“No religion can show taht their gods exists or the events supposedly caused by their gods happened. You also must show that every other god doesn’t exist, since you want to claim only yours exists.”

Again, there is more to theistic apologetics than that, but by making such a claim, you are taking on the burden of proof. Also, I do not have to prove all other gods are wrong if I can prove Christ is the true God, which is beyond the scope of this article.

“You also can’t show that beleive in one god is better than believe in many. You just claim it is without evidence.”

Again, we have presented evidence. You may find the evidence inconclusive, but you have the burden of proof to show that. I also wrote on polytheism here https://thecatholicofhonor.wordpress.com/2021/02/10/why-can-there-not-be-many-gods/. Forgive the jokes about Donald Trump.

I actually wrote an article on Fatima here if you’re interested https://thecatholicofhonor.wordpress.com/2020/08/30/fatima-an-optical-allusion-or-a-miracle/.

I am part of the original sect of Christianity. Again, note my analogy about Shakespeare’s plays.

With all due respect, I suggest, by the way, that you make sure you’ve heard the person you’re debating before you declare they are in some way incapable of proving their side.

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There does not appear to be any more to theistic apologetics than that they need to show evidence for their claims and show that it is their version of their god that did any events claims, from “creation” on out.

And no, I am not taking on the burden of proof by pointing out that theists who claim their gods exist and do things need to provide evidence to support those claims. You are quite right, you can’t show that your god is the one true god. That is not beyond the scope of this article, it is beyond Christians.

The burden of proof is on the theist who makes the original claim and who tries to control other humans by insisting that this god exists and wants certain things done.

You have presented claims, not evidence, and inconclusive claims are not evidence. There is nothing that requires a single First Cause. Lots of gods can be just as eternal as you want to pretend yours is. There is also nothing simple about this god since Christians cannot agre on what it wants, what it does, etc. This god is not described as immaterial in the bible, again it stands on things, has a backside, loves smoke from burnt meat, etc. All of these require a body. And yes, the bible does claim that this god is indeed immaterial, more contradictions from a collection of books with nothing to support them as fact.
“Now God is His own nature. Therefore, there can be only one God.” An dother gods can have their own natures, no reason here to claim that there can only be one god.

“Now God is the First Cause so the perfection of all things must exist in God in a more perfect way. “ nothing more than a presupposition.

“Everything in the world is orderly and harmonizes with each other. But diverse things do not harmonize with each other unless they are ordered by one thing. “ Repeating the first cause nonsense again. No need for a god. Only the laws of physics.

Unsurprisingly, I don’t have a burden of proof at all, to show that no one needs your god, or that polytheistic things might exist. You claim you are right, so you have the burden of proof.
Yes, I see you did write an article about Fatima. It makes the usual Christian Catholic claims. Not even other Christians believe it was a miracle.

Every Christian claims they have the original sect of Christianity. Anyone who knows early Christian history knows that is quite an amusing lie since it was splintered from the very beginning, and Catholics have no evidence that Peter even existed.

I’ve heard you quite well. And you have yet to prove your claims. I’ve read the bible, I know how the sects of Christianity differ, and I have no reason to think any of you have the “right” version.

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With all due respect, you seem to be claiming I am wrong a number of times without actually explaining why (for example, my extensive proof of the miracle of Fatima, not that that is Catholic doctrine). For the record, about the burden of proof, as I already explained in the above article. You have claimed: “You are quite right, you can’t show that your god is the one true god. That is not beyond the scope of this article, it is beyond Christians.” This is an affirmative claim and so in that sense you have the burden of proof.

For the record, my defense of monotheism is assuming already my opponent believes in a “First Cause”.

I fail to see, by the way, why the fact that people differ as to which church they think Jesus established means that He didn’t found a church or that He isn’t the God-man. Also, I didn’t say “right” I said “original”. Prior to the sixteenth century, a Christian was either Catholic or Orthodox, which cuts it down substantially. Now, I could explain why I think Catholicism is more reasonable in my opinion, but since you don’t even believe in the divinity of Christ, I don’t really see why that would help.

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I am indeed showing that you are wrong and explaining why. Your “extensive proof” regarding Fatima is nonsense.

But lets take another look at your claims. You start with an appeal to authority. You have people staring into the sun which will indeed make their eyes do all sorts of things, including making the sun look like it is moving since there will be tears. The Catholic Church has repeatedly approved of nonsense without evidence, like the nonsense at Lourdes.

Funny how “eyewitness testimonies” are never the same when it comes to religious claims. And no, it doesn’t make sense to think that a moving sun is the same one as a crashing to earth one. “Any journalist knows that when reports match up too closely, it is probably a conspiracy.” This is nonsense and a common excuse given by theists for their baseless claims. You also don’t’ know photographers who will stand and take a picture in war zones. You try to make up an excuse that they all ran in terror.

This seems to be your best argument “I have yet to find a quote or primary source from one eyewitness who said he or she saw nothing out of the ordinary besides everyone panicking around him or her. “

This is an argument from ignorance. Christians depend on upon willfull ignorance all of the time to try to imply their claims are true. We also have this in a Catholic country where the crowd were catholics. Now, imagine what would happen to a Catholic if they said, “nope didn’t see anything.” When everyone around them claimed they did. This need to lie shows up in all churches, where everyone must insist that they are a good Christian too and see the magic, speak in tongues, etc.
“Alfredo da Silva Santos of Lisbon describes his wife as having fainted and a man with a white beard running about, challenging atheists as to whether a supernatural event had occurred.” More baseless claims and gee, how does this mysterious old man tell who are the atheists? Hmmm, those who don’t see anything? And we’re back to my point above. Your supposed witness from further away of course can’t describe anything in detail. Now, why would this be a localized phenomenon? And a nine year old? Gee, they aren’t suggestible at all…..

“Even if Lúcia was mentally unstable and actually believed that she had seen the Lady, I could hardly see her influence going so far as to bring Francisco and Jacinta not to recant in a life-or-death scenario.” There was no “live or death scenario”. But nice try to make it seem so. We have no evidence for that at all but people who want to make things more impressive.

“However, think for a second. Would you really be in a suggestive state on the word of three children? “ Sure, since Jesus says that truth is from the mouth of babes. Again, you are a Christian who has to ignore what his religion actually claims to try to invent a reason that this event wouldn’t be believed from kids.

“However, if Sr. Lúcia were insane (which is the only reasonable explanation I can come up with; I have already illustrated why I do not think she could have been lying), that would mean that Sr. Lúcia would have made up the Secret between 1939 and 1941 and actually believed she had heard it twenty-four years prior.”

nope, not insane at all. Theists often retcon their claims. It’s handy to have a vague claim and then decide it “really” meant some important event.

“He does that with His own body every Mass after all.” No, no he doesn’t. That’s a baseless belief.

“At any rate, if you will recall, it was raining that day, yet, if one puts any reliability whatsoever on thousands of eye-witnesses, all the rain stopped and immediately dried up at the time when the miracle occurred.”

and that has no evidence for happening either. Your “eyewitnesses” make up a lot of nonsense.

You also don’t understand the burden of proof either. Most Christians don’t and try to lie about it since they know they have no evidence for their claims at all.

If you an show that your god is the one true god, then do so. I can show that it doesn’t exist since there is no evidence for it, the events that it supposedly caused, etc. Tell me what date that the flood, the exodus etc happened, my dear Catholic. And I can show that entire different events were happening at each point. I do expect you to provide these dates. If you can’t, then you are just again depending on vague nonsense to support you supposed “truth”.

You claim your god is the first cause. You cannot show this claim true. The burden of truth is yours to show your god exists and is the creator. Yep, your defense of monotheism depends on assuming a first cause. You cannot show that is needed. Your claim fails.
If we are to assume that your god is omnipotent, omniscient and wants everyone to come to it, then we must also assume that it can make itself clear. If it is not any of these, then your bible and you lie. We then have a god that is not omniscient or omnipotent or wanting everyone to come to it. Thus, your particular god disappears, or we have no god at all.

The fact that people differ on what they insist is the truth from this man/god shows that your god doesn’t exist. You can’t show that any of you have the right answer, and your god is quite silent on the subject.

You think you have the right version and the original version. So do many many many other Christians. And none of you can show this is the truth. Prior to the sixtheeth century, there were Arminian Christians, Coptic Christians, Gnostic Christians, Essenes, etc. You are either ignorant of Christian history or are trying to lie to me. Which is it?

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funny how you can’t show that they are heretics at all or that any other sect is less correct than you.

Christians love to call each other heretics. Pity that none of you can show your version the right one, or do the miracles promised by Jesus Christ. Quite a pile of crabs in a bucket, all trying to be the one on top.

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yes, dear “can’t show”.

You can’t show your nonsense to be any better than what the supposed heretics claims. Every theist, and every Christian, makes up what they want, insisting that it is what this god “really” wants.

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ah, nothing more than a question mark.

Let me repeat:

You can’t show your nonsense to be any better than what the supposed heretics claims. Every theist, and every Christian, makes up what they want, insisting that it is what this god “really” wants.

I’m waiting to see if you can, and show me wrong.

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If you want it to be explained you are wrong, I suggest you conduct yourself more politely. Believe me: the outcome will be much better.
Also, unless I am misunderstanding you, you seem to be utilizing Bulverism.

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“If you want it to be explained you are wrong, I suggest you conduct yourself more politely. Believe me: the outcome will be much better.
Also, unless I am misunderstanding you, you seem to be utilizing Bulverism.”

That you cannot show that I am wrong is fine with me.

If you want to accuse me of bulverism, then show your evidence. here’s a handly definition from the wiki page: Bulverism is a term for a rhetorical fallacy that combines circular reasoning with presumption or condescension.

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Strange that you should be defending theists.
The Catharist doctrine that all intercourse between the sexes ought to be avoided was not highly commendable. Man, they taught, is a living contradiction. Hence, the liberation of the soul from its captivity in the body is the true end of our being. To attain this, suicide is commendable; it was customary among them in the form of the endura (starvation). As generation propagates the slavery of the soul to the body, perpetual chastity should be practiced. Generation was abhorred by the Albigenses even in the animal kingdom. Not an altogether healthy philosophy. But of course that is of little interest to you. Your hatred of the church blinds you.
The Cathars were murdered by Northern French and German barons who did this more for political than religious reasons, as they directly benefited from the spoils.
We tend to judge things by the standards of our day. Things were very different 800 years ago. Those were rather ruthless times.

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I defend people who were killed by megalomaniacs like Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler and Mao. Atheism doesn’t make one a killer. Megalomania does.

But do try to lie and claim atheism makes killers. All of who aren’t show that you would be lying. Atheism is a conclusion that there are no god or gods. It doesn’t inform my worldview other that that.

Your bible has lovely instructions on why this god wants you to kill people of other religions.

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I’ve read the bible a couple of times, as a Christian and as not. I know all of those inconvenient things that Christians hope no one ever mentions. That their god kills children, that their god kills anyone who doesn’t agree with it, that their god works with Satan repeatedly, etc.

What JC teaches is exactly what I mention, W. You just don’t like me being entirely truthful about it. I don’t pick and choose to make a god I like.

Yep, if someone is a megalomaniac and murders lots of people, that’s what is important, not if they are an atheist or theist if the religion or lack of it never mentions genocide. But if I can show that you get your directions from your god in your bible that genocide is perfectly fine, then we can also point to religion as being a cause.

That’s your problem.

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“You seem to be suggesting that I support the killing of the Cathars, and agree with those who kill those they disagree with?”

Yep, right here you make excuses for Christians like yourself:

“The Cathars were murdered by Northern French and German barons who did this more for political than religious reasons, as they directly benefited from the spoils.
We tend to judge things by the standards of our day. Things were very different 800 years ago. Those were rather ruthless times.”

you are a Christian. Your god says kill those who disagree with you. It kills those who disagree with it:

All of Revelation.

“25 (And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten pounds!’) 26 ‘I tell you, to all those who have, more will be given; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.’” Luke 19.

Do tell us who the “lord” is in the parable, W.

“2 If there is found among you, in one of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, and transgresses his covenant 3 by going to serve other gods and worshiping them—whether the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden— 4 and if it is reported to you or you hear of it, and you make a thorough inquiry, and the charge is proved true that such an abhorrent thing has occurred in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or that woman who has committed this crime and you shall stone the man or woman to death. ” Deut 17

among very many others.

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You say: “Yep, right here you make excuses for Christians like yourself:”
I’m making NO excuses, I’m looking at things in perspective.
You say: “Your god says kill those who disagree with you.” ?????
The Old Testament was given to a primitive people who God gradually brought to civilisation, to the point where Jesus’ teachings set a standard unknown in any previous civilisations. By and large the Old Testament injunctions do NOT apply to Christians today, other than things like the ten commandments and the like.
As to Luke 19:25, have you heard of justice?

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You are making excuses, e.g. “something offered as justification” Merriam-webster.

I love this common Christian claim that this god is ever so incompetent that it is limited by humans. Alas, those people in the OT weren’t any more primitive than you or I. They were ignorant. And this god chose to keep them that way.

And plenty of civilizations were far above the ignorant Israelites at the time. Ancient China, Ancient India, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Celts, etc.

Like so many Christians, you hate the idea of following this god’s laws. Of course, JC says you are to follow *all* of this god’s laws, no exceptions. You are terrified if someone would dare ask you to do these things. So you just pick and choose what wants you want to pretend your god “really” wants you to follow and ignore you bible. I do enjoy hypocrites.

and Yep, I’ve heard of justice and fairness, your god has none at all.

“25 (And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten pounds!’) 26 ‘I tell you, to all those who have, more will be given; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.’””

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“We tend to judge things by the standards of our day. Things were very different 800 years ago. Those were rather ruthless times.”

poof goes any claims of objective morals for the Catholic Church then. You lie when you claim it was “more” for “political reasons”. Christians love to try to claim that they are innocent of the wars that constantly raged between different sects of Christianity.

Your religious leaders approved of it all.

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“Your bias is evident.”

you made the claim. Now defend it.

Unsurprisingly, all you have is apparently a false claim rather than showing that I’m wrong.

“poof goes any claims of objective morals for the Catholic Church then. You lie when you claim it was “more” for “political reasons”. Christians love to try to claim that they are innocent of the wars that constantly raged between different sects of Christianity.

Your religious leaders approved of it all.”

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I am innocent of the wars that were waged centuries ago between different sects of Christianity, just as you are innocent of the wars that occurred before your day.
The “objective morals” of the church are not the same as the (immoral) actions of individual Christians, or any pope.

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no, you aren’t. You believe in the same garbage that says to kill those who don’t agree with you.

Or do you just ignore the inconvenient parts of your bible?

Again, this is what your god wants you to do:

“f there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones”

All of Revelation.

“25 (And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten pounds!’) 26 ‘I tell you, to all those who have, more will be given; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.’”” Luke 19

Again, tell us who the “lord” is in the parable.

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And yet more lies from W. So, W, do show how you know how to interpret the bible and why I should think your way is the right way.

Surely you can, right? Every Christian has their way they claim is the only true one and funny how not one of you can do the miracles that your god promised all real baptized Christians can do.

I do enjoy how you also can’t show that I’m wrong in my interpretation

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clubschadenfreude,
You are really angry, your tone is very aggressive and condemnatory, very judgemental. What drives this anger?
You are not in a mood to listen and understand, you have already made up your mind, your emotions show all the way, you are beyond the reach of reason. Admit it.

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You do not mean anything said to me with the “utmost respect”, not when you try to tell me false nonsense.

I will call you a liar and other theists liars if you are. It’s not wrong at all. I am happy to give facts rather than allow you to spread nonsense that your religion is ever so innocent when it comes to wars and killing.

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As Waterandthespiritapologetics said, atheism has killed probably more people. Also, if you want to end theism, commenting impolitely on other people’s blogs isn’t very useful.

Again, I’m trying to be polite here, but your method of approach is unjust. Give ordinary arguments sans ad hominems (such as accusing theists of all being responsible for massive murders) and other insults (such as randomly calling them liars) and , and I will respond to them. If you really want to help theists, I suggest you show more caring approach to this.

I am trying my hardest at this moment not to associate your manners with all atheists. Again, I’m trying to be polite, but seriously, both sides need to listen to each other respectfully if we intend to get anywhere. Otherwise, we’re both wasting each other’s time.

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again, you show you have no honor at all my dear Catholic since you and your friend do repeatedly lie and bear false witness about others.

Atheism has not killed people. It is a conclusion tht there are no god or gods. You are an atheist too, to all of the gods you claim aren’t real.. Megalomaniacs who happened to have been atheists are what killed people.

Since I have no need to kill anyone, you cannot claim that atheism is the cause of genocide. Commenting on Christian’s blogs and showing how they lie is indeed very useful in ending theism. It shows that Christianity isn’t what it claims to be.

You claim I am ‘unjust” but you can’t or won’t show how this is. Why is that? Where are the ad hominem arguments you accuse me of using?

I have no problem in pointing out that if you worship a god that causes genocide, and approve of it, you are just as guilty for those genocides. Unsurprisingly, you won’t say your god was wrong.

I do not “randomly” call you and others liars. I always indicate why you are lying. But you again can show where I’ve not, if you can.

I give arguments and you offer excuses why you can’t answer them. I’m not impressed. I’m not here to help theists, I’m here to show how they fail.

It’s shouldn’t be too hard to associate my actions just with me. IF you find you must lie to yourself and claim that all atheists are alike, that’s your problem. No one elses.

I have no respect for someone who lies about me and to me. Like many theists, you want to whine about “politeness” since you have nothing substantive to counter my points with.

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Sorry. That question was for Sally, above. I’ve corrected its placement. Let’s see what she provides as an answer.
As for your response, the same question still applies, Why? What do you gain/How do you benefit?? The Bible says that God hardens the heart of some people, who refuse to accept Him. Would praying to change that, not be contrary to His divine plan? 😳

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So, let me get this straight: do you think that God hardens the hearts of people because they refuse to accept Him or that people refuse to accept Him because God hardens their hearts?

Following that question, do you think there are some great sinners who eventually repent?

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I don’t believe in (your) God, or that tis ever happened, before, during, or after.
I was just interested to see the size and shape of the wiggle-room religious escape hatch you would provide. 🙄

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Atheists, and also many Christians, are in the habit of pulling one verse out of scripture and judging it on its own, very often out of context, and without any understanding of the whole. That never leads to the truth.
An example of this is Pharoah in Exodus. In Exodus 7:3 where God says: “3 But I myself shall make Pharaoh stubborn and shall perform many a sign and wonder in Egypt.”
But we see that Pharaoh’s heart is already hardened way before that. In Exodus 1: 22 we read: “22 Pharaoh then gave all his people this command: ‘Throw every new-born (Israelite) boy into the river, but let all the girls live.'”
A man’s heart is hardened by the sins he commits. The consequence of sins is to harden man’s heart. This is the sense in which God hardens man’s heart, by allowing the consequences of man’s actions to follow their course.

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A detailed response does not constitute a valid answer. Exodus 7:3 plainly states that God claims the responsibility, and clearly says that He shall make Pharaoh stubborn. He does not use the excuse of free will, to allow him to perform despicable acts which eventually coarsen and debase his soul. This is not the same as “Hardening his heart,” which means to become or remain stubborn and/or obstinate, not accepting another’s opinion or desired course of action. Anyone who would present that as an argument obviously knows neither Theology, nor proper English usage.

Show me a later context verse where God says, “You know that thing that I specifically said over there??! I didn’t really mean it.” BTW: You still haven’t given an answer to why you want Atheists to ‘know Jesus.’ I haven’t had my daily chuckle, so you might try to convince me that it’s strictly through religious altruism, and not to assuage the insecurity caused by people who won’t join your club. 😳

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You’re the last person I’d turn to understand scripture.
If I’m feeling sick, I go to the doctor. If my tooth aches, I go to the dentist. If I want to know something about the cosmos, I go to a cosmologist not to the Flat Earth Society. If I want to know something about God, I go to a theist, not an “A”theist. If I want to understand the Christian scriptures, I go to those who have the authority to interpret the Christian scriptures, not some deluded anti-Christian.

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Far from dismissing your position out f hand, I presented a well-considered counter-argument. I not merely permitted further discussion and explanation, I encouraged it. Instead, what I got, was your accusation. It does seem that there is some blind dismissal happening, but it doesn’t appear to be by me.
If I don’t rush to accept your claims, it is not necessarily from stony disagreement. It may be that there is some inherent fatal flaw in your position, or that you are particularly inept at arguing for and presenting it. To place all blame on me seems especially self-serving.
Speaking of which…. If you wish to pray that Atheists come to agree with you so that you can commit the self-righteous fallacy of accepting the argument from popularity because you have no better reason – that’s all right. It would just be nice if you had the honesty to own it. 😯

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I apologize. You said “You keep repeating that as long as it makes you feel good.” in response to Water above. If you meant something other than the response to your argument, I am sorry.

By the argument from popularity, I think you mean that which concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it. That is not what I was doing. The call to pray for atheists was actually for my fellow theists who already think they have good reason to suppose that God exists.

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By they have good reason to suppose, do you mean your Christian friends, or Atheists?? Because Atheists do not feel that they have good reason to believe.
I understand the community of prayer! I understand gathering like-minded people to worship God together. You have not explained why, instead of presenting evidence – proof – a reasoned argument for the existence of God to Atheists, you gather a group and pray that they suddenly change their minds and agree with you. 😕 😯

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I meant my Christian friends, actually. You know I have theists reading this. I wasn’t saying that to you, nor did I bring that up before you did. Also, Sally was the one who said that, not I. This entire blog is (mostly) devoted to logical reasons for why you should believe the Catholic Faith. But, if you really want to know, I don’t think anyone can do anything good without grace. There’s a spiritual aspect to it as well. So if I want them to convert, I need to both pray and reason logically.

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It is interesting that today’s reading is:
John 3:16-21
Jesus said to Nicodemus:
‘God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son,
so that everyone who believes in him may not be lost
but may have eternal life.
For God sent his Son into the world
not to condemn the world,
but so that through him the world might be saved.
No one who believes in him will be condemned;
but whoever refuses to believe is condemned already,
because he has refused to believe in the name of God’s only Son.
On these grounds is sentence pronounced:
that though the light has come into the world
men have shown they prefer darkness to the light
because their deeds were evil.
And indeed, everybody who does wrong
hates the light and avoids it,
for fear his actions should be exposed;
but the man who lives by the truth comes out into the light,
so that it may be plainly seen that what he does is done in God.’

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Look, I don’t care if you want to think that I “believe there is no god”, or just don’t believe in any god. I care that you show us the goods.

The question about the other gods is absolutely valid, because your particular god isn’t any better than they are. All the gods seem to like to hide and only help in ways that are the same as random chance. And since I don’t believe in Thor, why should I believe in your god? Again, show us the goods.

The god of the gaps is called that because your god is not the god of actually doing stuff. Your god only seems to be able to function when it’s something we don’t yet understand. That is not only unimpressive, it also means that your god is just a pocket of ignorance. If you want us to believe in your god, show us the goods!

I hope this helps. I hope you understand that we just want to see the goods. Show us the goods.

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Thanks for your comment, Spartan Atheist (an excellent username, by the way; it seems we both enjoy references to ancient warriors).

I’m not sure what you mean by “the goods”. Do you mean evidence specifically that God exists? If so, I could definitely show that. By calling these arguments “weak” I meant that they do not work well (in my opinion) as “standalone” arguments.

I absolutely agree with you that the question about which God exists is very important. However, I don’t think it necessarily disproves God’s existence. I believe from reason and philosophy alone, I could show you why it makes sense that there is one God (which immediately rules out Thor). There are only a handful of major religions which hold to that view. I could also show you why I think Christianity is true if you wish, but that was beyond the scope of this article.

By the “God in the gaps”, I meant that some people seem to think there is “always” some other, scientific explanation for everything. My only point was that that is a rather unscientific approach if we do not draw the line somewhere.

Again, thanks for your comments.

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There is definitely something interesting about ancient warriors! Facinating study.

I appreciate your civil tone. Thank you, and know it is welcome.

So, I’m using the wording “show me the goods”, because I’ve noticed that a lot of people really don’t grasp evidence and logic. So when I dispute random information that is not evidence, they get mad. When I talk about null hypothesis, or logically not following, or defending claims, people seem to misunderstand and go off on random rants. The more specific I try to be, the more cavalier the responses seem to be.

So I’m using a term I hope we all kinda get a feeling for. Like the phrase “put up or shut up”, asking someone to show me the goods is my way of saying we can talk ourselves into circles, but it means absolutely nothing if we don’t check with reality.

I don’t want to get in a philosophical discussion with you. Not that I don’t enjoy philosophy, but because a philosophical discussion is only as good as the facts we put in. We can philosophize about money, or we can philosophize about unicorns. Only one of these two has the goods.

Does that make sense?

Thanks, TSA

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I have had the same experience. For the record, the feeling is mutual. If you will see above, two rather impolite atheists have already commented on this post. You, my friend, have just restored my faith in the ability of atheists to have a reasonable discussion about these things.

So, if I’m understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying that you want concrete evidence for the existence of God. I will say whole-heartedly that I do believe there is plenty of it out there. I can share some of it if you like.

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I’ve personally found the argument from absolute goods to be the strongest so far for the existence of God. However, I’d also like to know which theistic argument you find the strongest and what you think is wrong with it.

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Mr Chivalric, you said you had evidence. We can philosophically construct any reality in great detail. Literally, there is no alternate and fake reality we can’t construct, just by thinking through the story and making up stuff.

Evidence is how we ground the philosophy with reality. You said you had evidence…..

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Nope. Good and evil are not real things, just like any other label we apply to anything. We label someone a strong community supporter, but that doesnt mean “strong community supporter” is a thing that physically or otherwise exists.

Good is a label we put on things we see as good, and evil is a label we put on things we see as evil. Something good can have bad elements, but we subjectively call it good based on an overall assessment against our own moral agency.

Same with evil.

Do I believe some things are more universally understood to be one or the other? Sure.

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So, please correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but is it your viewpoint that good and evil are entirely social or evolutionary constructs? If so, do you mean to say you would not find it intrinsically immoral for me to go out and shoot someone on the street for no good reason?

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I can think of lots of reasons why shooting people is a bad idea, none of which are because the action was dictated by someone or some entity.

Frankly, if you can’t think of a purely secular reason not to shoot people, I’m afraid for your friends and family.

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I can think of a purely secular reason not to do so: that being fear of punishment by law. However, I wouldn’t say that works in an absolute sense. In Cicero’s Laws, he points out that when someone merely seeking his own advantage finds a helpless rich man on the road in the wilderness, he will kill him and steal from him unless he thinks he will be found out and punished. What do you say to that?

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I think you can do better than that. I’m not sure of your family situation, but let’s start small. If you have a spouse or children, is the law the only reason you can possibly think of that keeps you from killing them?

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Well, certainly not. If I had a wife and children I would naturally have a feeling of love toward them, but feelings could go away. Even if I didn’t have the feeling of love (perhaps I got angry with them for some reason), it would still be wrong to kill them. This still feels like refraining out of one’s own self-interest, which can lead to doing things generally considered immoral. My logical reasoning for why I shouldn’t kill them, by the way, is that I respect their human dignity which was given by God.

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Love however you want to take it.

But this thing you said is just ridiculous. You said, and I paraphrase, “I’m okay with killing people randomly, therefore there must be an absolute standard of morality.”

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Please try again.

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Chivalry is not dead! Lol! (Sorry, bad joke. Glad to hear from you again.)

You said that a strong reason you would not kill your hypothetical family was God. Specifically, your understanding that they were created by god and so shouldn’t be killed, or words to that effect.

You have not taken ownership of this killing thing. You are deferring to your god belief entirely. And what I want to know is, are you completely unable to defend not killing without a god? If you woke up tomorrow and absolutely knew for sure, without a doubt, that not only was there no God, but you were also in charge of making the laws of society, would you be okay with random murder?

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I assume that’s a reference to the Pure Flix movie. Yeah…that’s not exactly something I’d suggest for an atheist friend to see. Sorry for the late reply. I’ve been busy.

Alright, I grant you have a good point to an extent. I would like society to function for my own personal good, since if there were random laws okay with murder, it would be okay for me to be murdered. Even if it were illegal to kill me, that would be unwise, since the general populace would probably try to depose me if you’ve read history. I still don’t see how that allows, however, for Cicero’s example which I brought up earlier of a helpless rich man on the road if you knew that no one would ever find out.

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The helpless rich man on the road shouldn’t be murdered for the same reason you shouldn’t murder your spouse. You don’t murder your spouse because you love him/her. You don’t murder their side of the family because they are part of your life and you love him/her. You don’t murder people in their community because it affects them, and they are part of your life, and you love him/her. And you don’t murder random people you meet because they are part of a community or family somewhere that loves them and in doing so makes humanity less safe, and less loving.

We tried the model of only taking care of our own communities, and murdering everyone else without a care, for thousands of years. But after a while, people noticed that constantly being at war with each other is a terrible way to live. It causes pain and suffering and needless loss of life, trust, property, peace, and humanity.

This is why in the old testament, they act like tribal warlords. Back then, that’s as far as morality had evolved. So killing every man, woman, and child of the next town over for the glory of your tribe was not unheard of. It was pretty normal. Reading the Old Testament is a textbook on how to run a society in the worst possible way. If we ran our society based on Old Testament laws and rules, murder of the helpless man on the road would be okay.

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(Sorry for the consistently late responses!)

I would agree with that. However, the random person’s death on the road won’t affect you. Why do you want to do a favor to their family? Why do you want to make humanity less safe if it doesn’t effect you? If you kill only helpless people far from home without anyone knowing, you’ll probably still be safe and it will be secret.

I’m pretty sure murdering random helpless rich men on roads was considered a sin in the Old Testament, but that is another issue.

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No worries, we are under no time constraints! Lol!

Yes, it is true that the random person won’t affect you personally.

Imagine, if you will, a world where people in small groups just try to protect their own loved ones and close friends because they live together and depend on each other for getting food, love, doing chores, etc. Let’s call this, for the sake of easy reference, “hunter-gatherer morality.”

Hunter-gatherer morality works generally okay as long as there are pockets of people spread out. They may murder, or war depending on your definition, with another group from time to time without seriously diminishing their quality of life.

However, as cities and civilizations came into being. The basic understandings of how you acted with your tribe had to be extended to more people. You can’t have a successful trade port if people assume they will get killed. Leaders enforced laws to create a successful civilization. Now, killing someone random may not be an issue that affects your family in a city, but it affects the city. So the city brings you up on murder charges.

Cities became states, nations, and empires. Rulers codified laws uniformly. Entire populations accepted laws and their moral code.

The bible reflects this non-deity driven shift in morality. The OT has laws and morality within their civilization, but is perfectly fine going over to the next city and comitting genocide. God of the OT orders so much genocide he makes Hitler look like a chump.

Then the NT sort of softens some of the laws a bit. Jesus shows deference to Roman law. Paul throws all sorts of laws out the window.

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I am busy. I was also a bit distracted by another more trivial online debate about whether Shakespeare or Tolkien were better writers, if you want to know.

The whole point of my example was that no one would know about the random person’s murder. For instance, what if you could see the future and knew if you would do that that no one would ever know or catch you?

So, if we lived in a hunter-gatherer society, would it be wrong to kill members of other tribes? Also, should you do what is right because of your own self-interest or because of the laws or general consensus? What do we do if laws are unjust?

I would personally disagree with that, but that is another issue. You asked me to give a reason for why theism is reasonable.

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Shakespeare v Tolkien? My first take is Shakespeare took on politics and humanity using settings that were somewhat contemporary, vs Tolkien telling stories of characters in pure fantasy land. Shakespeare wins in delivering a message, Tolkien wins in character development. What say you?

Not to bridge off that point, but it seems all to easy. It’s fun to think that there could be some superhero out there that makes all the bad guys have to face justice. It makes for good storytelling, but reasonable? Wishful thinking, or maybe even a nice idea. But I don’t think I would call it reasonable as a legitimate, real world proposition.

But I commend you on asking these moral questions, because that is exactly how morality has advanced over time. Take slavery. The US had slaves, as did most countries, a mere couple hundred years ago. Today slavery is universally condemned, and rare around the world. Slavery was just a bad idea, not only for the slaves, but for the slave owners and communities in general. And for the state and the nation. The more interconnected our societies, the more and more the “killing a loner guy far away from anyone” still impacts us all. And then people like us, and teachers and leaders and parents and grandparents and businessmen and everyone else see the benefit of morality and pass it along.

There is no ultimate justice for slave owners of the past. We just have to try and do better in the future.

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I think character development is more important. I like Tolkien’s themes better personally, since I think he captures humanity at any age. Let’s just say I was on the Tolkien side… I know some people would vehemently disagree with that (and they did). I’m personally not a huge fan of absolute tragedy to be honest with you (as in stories with positively sad endings).

I think I understand you. But how do we know we are getting “better”? How do we know that slavery is wrong? After all, it was once universally accepted. After all, life is never really fair. Where are we trying to get to? A human community bonded more closely together? Why is that important? What if you prefer to live out in the wilderness away from anyone? You still haven’t answered me: was it wrong in hunter-gatherer societies for people to occasionally kill innocent members of other tribes when it didn’t effect them? I’m still a bit concerned that justice is becoming confused with acting in one’s own interest.

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Chivalric, I implore you to watch the comedies of Shakespeare. The Comedy of Errors has a happy resolution, and it isn’t what is said as much as how it is said. But I hear you. Character development is important sometimes. I wish George Lucas had remembered that before he decided to F up Star Wars.

Adulting sucks. It does. It isn’t simple anymore. Nothing is simple. If it were easy, the kids could do it and we could retire.

Morality is not a cut and dried absolute. I think it is a good time to bring up the example of speeding. For obvious reasons, the bible doesn’t diacuss the law regarding speeding. And I do NOT bring this up as some demonstration of the bible not being timeless. Again, that is NOT my point. My point is, as adults, we have to think through the problem.

How fast should we let cars go in different scenarios? What factors should we consider? Pedestrian traffic? Driveways? Environmental considerations? Safety to vehicle occupants?

Should it be the death penalty to speed 1 MPH over the posted speed limit? Should it be jail or licence surrender or a fine to speed? Do we allow a couple MPH over? Or 5? Or 10? Or 40? What about being tired or short or drunk or unlicenced? What should it take to get a licence? Etc.

Again, my point is NOT to knock the bible for not discussing speed laws. But since it says absolutely nothing on the subject, we had to be adults and develop the rules. And over time, as people understand the rules and WHY there are rules, it impacts morality. Drunk driving is now widely considered morally reprehensible, for example.

100% the same thing with murder. Is it murder if the person doesnt have a family? Or during war? Or if they piss you off? Or if they sleep with your significant other? Is it murder if you didn’t even know it, but you were driving drunk? (there it is.) Is it murder if that person murdered someone and you were just returning the crime with like punishment? Is it murder to kill animals? Or plants?

I’m not being facetious. ALL of these questions regarding murder have deeply held beliefs that are contrary to each other in societies, and indeed within Christianity.

Thinking through moral issues like adults, and leading others to do the same, is how morality changes, or gets “better.” I’ll tackle “better” later if you are interested.

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(Sorry, I’ve been busy again)
I’ll think about that. Thanks for the suggestion. I agree, by the way, Rise of Skywalker could have been better so far as characterization goes.

So, correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but if I am correct, you are saying that everyone must discern for themselves what is moral and immoral in particular circumstances. The thing is, I think in the subject of speeding, that is a prudential judgment. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with driving two hundred miles per hour, but there is something wrong with being careless with other people’s lives.

As for your point about murder, I think the rules are actually very much set. I define murder as the deliberate taking of innocent human life. So in war, at least one side is killing unjustly. Yes, I do think many viewpoints have differed, but that doesn’t mean one isn’t right. Actually, how would you define murder?

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Well, each person is free to think about moral issues and offer their opinion. Some people might think 10 mph over the speed limit is akin to punching someone. Others might think the speed limit itself is unnecessarily slow or fast. But by consensus, informed by some crash science, we as a society collectively agree on a speed limit and what a tolerable speed is, and what punishment is in line with the crime. You and I both know this was done for speed limits. It was a process that took some time, but we have developed a decent sense for what is or isn’t good, bad, really bad, or downright criminally negligent speed. This is exactly how morality works.

People that don’t have their children in car seats are looked upon by society as negligent parents. But when I was a kid, never rode in one.

Drunk driving in many states is STILL a misdeameanor the first 2 or 3 or 4 times, in other states the second strike is jail. And in those states, people look down upon drunk drivers as immoral.

These are examples of morality, and moral agency, in action. I like to use speeding, again, because there is no bible reference to it so we are free from the baggage of religion when speaking about it. It is purely a human endeavor to determine driving laws and driving morality.

Murder is more permanent. But other than that, it has gone through the exact same process as traffic laws. Murder is not simply defined, as evidenced by the fact that murder has 3 different degrees of seriousness associated with it in our laws, plus a couple more degrees of manslaughter. Involuntary manslaughter (a type of murder commonly associated with drunk driving deaths) carries penalties different than premeditated murder.

“War” is not an absolute excuse. For one, the declaration of war itself could be immoral. But even in a “just war” scenario, killing is expected to follow certain rules. Lots and lots of rules. But most of these rules are pretty new in human history. When Sherman marched to the sea, he burned crop land and towns along the way. The South thought he was a prick, but the north saw it as a necessary collateral damage in a just war. After all, the southern armies didnt have specialized logistics trains that provisioned their armies, they relied heavily on scorounging up supplies wherever they happened to be. Any military tactician can tell you to attack supply trains, but if they are living off the land, the land is their supply train. (Was Sherman a war criminal? Good question. I’m not going to answer, I’ll let you weigh the pros and cons)

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(In spite of the fact that I am a Christian, my Sunday was a bit stressful; I’m back now)

I know that various cultures have evolved in their understanding of morality, but I don’t quite see why that makes morality unfixed. Our legal systems have changed as to what human beings think is just, but I don’t quite see why that rules out an absolute standard to which they are aspiring.

As for war, these rules aren’t as new as you think. As early as the fourth century, Augustine laid out rules for what constituted a just war which I think most people would agree with today. He said “discrimination” must be used (in other words, civilians couldn’t be killed).

If I am correct, is your line of argument that since popular morality over time has changed, it is reasonable to suppose that morality does not exist as an absolute? And also that morality comes from whatever is thought best to protect the community? Correct me if my understanding is wrong at any point.

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Hi, Chivalric! No worries, no rush.

I just picked a spot in time I hoped you would be familiar with in my Sherman example. Killing discriminately has always been a tactical consideration, including today where our weapons are more accurate, and thus our targeting decisions have changed with the technology. But Augustine or Hamurabi or the Vikings, they all had a code. Often very different, but a code nonetheless.

That these cultures that knew nothing of Christianity, or pre-dated it, is strong evidence that Christianity has nothing to do with civilization’s desire to codifying morality. At best, it prescribes a specific morality. But not morality in general.

But no, I am not arguing that because morality shifts it means there is no absolute morality. That it shifts and is in every culture ever just means Christianity is not the sole owner of morality. To the contrary, I can think of quite immoral tennants of the religion.

However, I will, and am happy to argue that there is no absolute morality as that is contrary to us being moral agents. Morality is situational. Destroying another human can be a morally justifiable position, albeit one that must be weighed heavily. Agency is what makes morality work. In a system of absolute morality, the individuals are not acting as moral agents, but are just doing what they are told. This is not moral.

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I appreciate, by the way, the fact that we’re able to have a civil discussion about issues which, to some, are very sensitive.

That is not exactly my position. As a Christian, I obviously have a belief that God wrote morality in our hearts. That’s my point. We all know that certain things are evil, we just know it. What I’m saying is that, provided you do not reject moral codes entirely, there must be some transcendent Power who is good by nature.

Killing discriminately has been a tactical advantage, but Augustine (and I think Cicero, although I could be wrong about that) seemed to mean from a moral light.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean, so correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems you’re saying that because culpability can change based on situation, morality cannot be absolute. I don’t see why that follows, because I think there are specific rules. For instance, “You cannot kill another human being deliberately, except under, and only under, the circumstances of X, Y, and Z”, seems to be absolute to me.

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Yeah, it is appreciated.

You started off with a problem. “Writing morality in our hearts” is nonsensical. The heart just pumps blood.

And to be clear, I understand the poetic nature of the whole heart thing, but that is all it is. Poetic. There is no basis in reality there.

You grew up in a culture with influences. Had you grown up in a different culture, you would have had different influences. I’m sure you would be all too happy to ascribe that you don’t eat cat (I assume), drive on the right side of the road, shake hands instead of bow, like football or some other American sport, find drunk driving offensive, wear swimming shorts instead of Speedos, don’t expect to see topless women at the beach and magazine covers, enjoy peanut butter, and arrange the living room facing the TV to your American upbringing. (Again, assuming, but you understand.) All of these behaviors “seem” right without a whole lot of thought, because that was the culture in which you learned. There is nothing magical or supernatural about it.

The same goes for morality.

And no, I’m saying that we must be the moral agent. The decision maker. The processor of the situation against our knowledge of what we have learned about ethics and morality.

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I meant God writes the moral code on our metaphorical hearts. He writes it, you might say, on our souls.

No, I don’t eat cats by the way. So, supposing this is true, there’s nothing necessarily absolute about morality. If I’m understanding you, you seem to be saying we receive our moral codes from our culture. This returns to my question as to why it is absolutely necessary to follow it (I assume you agree that under no circumstance we can chop up an innocent human being, grind him up, and make burgers).

I agree with you based on our situation we must decide on the moral course of action. I do not quite see how that rules out a correct one though.

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Hi, Chivalric. We seem to be going in circles here.

I say we are good to our family and don’t kill them because we love them and depend on them, you say what about killing outside the family?

I say tribes build on family units and make rules to protect themselves for the benefit of the whole tribe, you say what about outside the tribe?

I say as societies developed, even killing anyone in the society was not helpful, so the laws were codified as such, you say but what ultimately makes the final rule?

Then I say the final rule is just the aggregate of everything we just discussed, and you ask but why don’t we just kill each other…

Okay, I’m thinking this over, and I think I see where the problem is. You aren’t satisfied with the answer that morality is just a muddled mess of lessons learned as societies grew ever wider. And I think the problem is because you always were taught that religion (or God, or the bible) gave you morality. So you are trying to find the point where there is a godly intervention, or an absolute standard, or maybe an outside arbiter.

While I appreciate that, the reality is that actual, real morality in the world today can be explained by this model of messy learned experience.

And since we are discussing these two competing models, the “written on our hearts” model fails. (Again, a metaphor, but also essentially meaningless.)

If there was an absolute morality that could somehow be found inside us…. somehow, we would expect anyone of the faith that truly wanted to follow god to get the same answer. This is obviously not what we see. We see over 30,000 denominations of Christianity with just as many varying moral beliefs.

And I’m aware that “sin” is used to explain bad behavior, but what “sin” can not explain is why someone who does not partake in the “sinful” behavior believes it is not a sin. If a deeply religious person trying their best to follow god says homosexuality is not a sin, while themselves having no desire and never partaking in homosexual activity, then they obviously are not “trying to sin” in forming their belief.

My model works perfect in explaining the human morality we see today, from killing people to traffic laws.

I know you really WANT to stick a god in there somehow. I get it. But your model can not even explain the varying morality of just Christians, let alone people of other faiths, cultures, and yes, even us atheists.

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I accept you think it’s made out of a messy learned experience. I think my problem is, first of all, if we were taken in a time machine to about six thousand years ago in some part of the world where society is not so complex, I don’t really see why it would still be wrong to kill them (ignoring the logistics of temporal paradoxes, the chance of time collapsing on itself, the butterfly effect, and whatever else is in science fiction nowadays). I would also question where to start. I don’t quite see why it would be wrong according to an atheist viewpoint, to kill a family member in the first place, provided you don’t like that family member. You seem to basically be saying (and again, correct me if I’m wrong) that we shouldn’t kill people so that human society will continue to exist, but I don’t quite see why it is an unbendable rule that we have to try to keep our kin alive (I feel like I could have explained that better, but I did my best).

How is it essentially meaningless? All I’m saying is that God made it so that we’d know deep down the basic principles of the moral law. I’m talking about the conscience, not the literal heart.

Alright, great point. I think, first of all, people often don’t want to know. For instance, an alcoholic knows he shouldn’t be drinking so much to support his family, but does so anyway because passion wins him over. As for those who do not partake in such behavior, there can be many reasons, but I will give a few examples. For instance, the Christian who supports homosexuality may enjoy some other sinful pleasure and therefore seek a psychological justification (I am definitely not saying all Christians of the “Affirmation” camp do so on that account, but that is a possibility). A Christian might also be won over by sentimentality and popular opinion which could supersede conscience. And, of course, consciences can be poorly formed or re-educated or someone might fall into ignoring his conscience for some other reason. That is why Divine revelation is necessary.

I do want there to be a God and I imagine you want there to be no God.For one thing, it would involve whichever one of us is wrong to have to change our lifestyles. However, you’ll just have to take my word for it even if you don’t agree with me—in my mind, what I’m saying makes logical sense.

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Hi, Chivalric. I want you to know I am enjoying this conversation. We should grab a beer sometime.

I’ll work backward on your comments for fun. If there really was a god, I would just accept it, just like I have to accept everything else in life. And I would hope this god would be kind, and not the tyrannical monster of the old testament.

I’ve noticed that morality from person to person, even within the same religion, is different enough to invalidate the singular mandate hypothesis. If I actually had the absolute moral commandments of God in me, then they are so weak as to be nearly impossible to identify, and easily overpowered by even moderate suggestion.

And lastly, yeah. If you and I were in a disconnected world, where neither of our lives were affected by or affected others lives, and our passing carried zero ripples in the community (sci-fi reasons included. Lol!), then it may just be okay to kill someone. I mean, you kill flies and cows and fish and trees without a thought, but in some societies, that is murder. That is a creation of their deity. But dead flies are meaningless to us as humans, so eh, screw flies, right? But we value humans. God or no God, we still value humans. I know that sounds soft and squishy, but that really is what it is all about, and yes, why even murder has so many caveats. (You know, war, criminal punishments, etc.)

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Right…I’m not actually old enough to…drink.

Yeah…I guess you didn’t need to know that.

You’re sort of arguing with a kid…

I’m glad you’re willing to say that. I hope I’ll have the courage to do the same if you do turn out to be right, since we at all times must conform our minds to reality.

I mean, there’s a reason why we still need them written in stone (I disagree with the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s sentiment, “Thou ought not do stuff thou already knowest is wrong, like killing, lying, cheating, stealing, etc. Dost thou really need these carved into a rock?”)—Right, sorry about that. I have probably wasted my time on this blog too much on arguing against Pastafarianism.

Anyway, as I was saying, I think it is precisely because one’s conscience can be malformed that we need Divine Revelation, just because a conscience can be so easily malformed, yet still the basic principles of the moral law are written on our hearts. Hence in every culture, I think people agree ultimately that murder was bad, even if they disagreed what constituted murder. And before you point out all the moral disagreements between Christian sects, I’m just going to say I’m Catholic, so I don’t believe in Sola Scriptura. I personally blame that doctrine for Protestantism not having real doctrinal unity.

For the record, I don’t think flies should be killed without a good reason, but that is somewhat irrelevant. I’m not a vegetarian. Alright, that brings me to question again (I apologize if this is getting repetitive) what our ultimate ends is to preserving the community if that is all that matters. You seem to basically be saying you shouldn’t murder someone because it could cause ripples in the community. However, if tearing up the community is to your advantage, I don’t really see the problem in doing so from an atheist worldview.

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Chivalric, not sure how old you are, but you have an intelligent and thoughtful style.

I’m not really sure if there is a good way to convey this next point without sounding patronizing, but I’ll bring it up because it may honestly be something you have never experienced. So here goes…

I am a father, a husband, I’ve led soldiers into battle, and now I have a professional career. Making ethical or moral judgements is never easy, yet I have to do them literally every day. What to do when a child breaks something, what to do when a soldier cheats on a spouse, what to do when an employee is late for work. The answers are never easy. It is a constant measuring of the situation of that person, your situation, what the expectations are, what it affects, what your authority is or isn’t, and a big guess about how effective your actions, assistance, or punishment will be.

These thoughts have to be processed against many standards including organizational ethics and rules, laws, and personal morality. You will find that almost nothing is truly black and white.

I know (pretty well, actually) a guy that just shot at his wife as she was driving away. That is pretty bad, and he is going to have to face serious legal consequences. But he also has a fairly bad case of PTSD from his time in combat. So what do you do?

Well, divine intervention would be nice, I guess. But after decades of making these kinds of decisions, I have to rely on that entire grab bag of completely non-divine information to make a decision.

I hope that makes sense, and I really hope you don’t take that as condescending. I know a lot of adults that have little to no experience having to make ethical decisions, and frankly it shows.

Gotta point a few things out here in relation to Protestantism. As I was raised Catholic, I’m aware how Catholicism is pretty proud of their “superior” position as the sole holder of unified doctrine. This is false, and based on a fairy tale. I’ll try to keep this relevant to the topic.

Catholicism dates to the council of Nicea (where they came up with that creed you know by memory), but it should be remembered that the reason they had that council was because early Christianity was even more diverse than it is today. Look up the Gnostics if you’re curious. The Nicean council was basically a Roman emperor locking a bunch of Christian leaders in a room and telling them to get a unified message or else. Afterward, all other messages were systematically destroyed by fire and sword. Not only is this highly NOT divine, it demonstrates how our beliefs, including morality, are taught and not magically internal. If it was internal, there wouldn’t be a need for an emperor to force compliance with a single system.

Secondly, Luther had a lot of issues with Catholicism, but one of the issues included an entirely made-up doctrine of the church selling indulgences. The Catholic church literally told people that if they bought some piece of trinket junk they would have a better chance of getting into heaven. Said another way, the church knowingly was fleecing their followers with no scriptural or religious standing. It was criminal. Fast forward a few hundred years, and we now know the Catholic church by policy and with approval of the Pope allowed sexual predators to remain in positions with full and unacompanied access to minors. They covered up the rape of thousands of innocent children, often pre-teens.

This is not what an organization that has any sense of morality or humanity does. They robbed the poor with a lie, and allowed thousand upon thousands of children to be raped. By official policy, mind you. (No, never experienced that myself, should you wonder. My Catholic years were happy.) Any real and honest discussion about morality being divinely inspired has to include this discussion about the abject criminal behavior of the flagstaff Christian religion.

And finally, yes, I’m saying exactly that we shouldn’t murder because of the ripples in a community. Murder doesn’t just stop one person’s life. It disjoins everything. If murder were allowed, our society could not exist in anything at all like it does. The physically strong or best armed would rule. Our entire society would live like a mob family. A very real fear of death would rule our lives. Life expectancy would not only decrease from murder, but from psychological health issues as well. Every business transaction would be a life-or-death transaction. Did that gas station cheat you out of a few gallons?!?!?

You get the picture. Tearing up the community has no good advantage, not even for the person at the top. Mob boss life is rarely peaceful, and mobster life is even more worthless. As an atheist, I am not interested in having to point a gun at someone and occasionally kill them just to ensure I get what I am due, and I would be devastated if my family were murdered over a misunderstanding.

Just like we started, if you don’t want your parents or siblings killed, then you have all the basis you need to build a society that doesn’t allow murder.

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Thank you. Let’s just say you can repeat that offer to have a beer in five years and I can accept.

You’re a veteran? Memorial Day is tomorrow, so thank you for your service. So, what you are saying, I think, is that when some people do bad thinks, it is difficult to come up with a fitting punishment in particular cases, since we cannot fully judge the gravity of their crime. I think that is different from saying that there is no an actual degree of culpability of an action and an omnipotent God (if He exists) couldn’t judge it.

The only reason I brought up the Catholic-Protestant distinction was in case you argued that since various Christian sects were in disagreement about major moral issues, it discredited the supposition that with divine revelation, we could have a basically unified moral code. For your information, the Nicene Creed, in its final form, dates back only to the Eleventh Century when “Filioque” was added and before then it had been written mostly in the First Council of Constantinople, but that is rather irrelevant. I don’t quite see what you mean. Are you saying that moral codes cannot be internal because people who professed the Catholic Faith didn’t necessarily follow them? If you read Catechism of the Catholic Church 2356, you can see that the Catholic Church does not support…that.

Alright, it sounds like you’re basically following Immanuel Kant’s philosophy then. If you go around killing people, you should expect them to kill you. I agree that that is a reasonable assumption, but I don’t think it works in all cases—such as the example I have brought up repeatedly of the helpless rich man on the road if you know no one will find out. You will not be in danger provided you stay out of trouble and his state yourself and no one will know anyway about what you did and therefore it will not effect whether anyone else helps you or kills you if you yourself end up helpless, rich, and on the road (sorry, that was a terrible sentence structure; ignore that).

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Deal on the beer.

I don’t think I am following Kant at all. He believed there were hard moral imperatives, I do not.

Think of it like this. Evidence is how we determine what is or is not true. So in a court case, evidence is presented to determine guilt or innocence. But the standard is not “absolutely, unequivocally, beyond the shadow of any doubt guilty.” This implies full 100% confidence. Instead, the standard is “beyond a reasonable doubt”, which is to say more like a 99% confidence level. And in civil cases, the standard is “preponderance of the evidence”, or over 50% confidence. So confidence of guilt or innocence is on a scale depending on what is on the line.

Our confidence level that killing someone is bad is above 99%. But it is not 100%, clearly, because of our concepts of war and self-defense. And our concept of if lying is bad is is lower, maybe 80%, since lies can actually be very useful, but are still very bad in many situations.

And since we, as a species, are able to communicate ideas and discuss them in detail, we can form a “confidence level” of if something is bad, and how bad it is. We can reflect on past murders and the senselessness of them, and uniformly agree that it is bad. But that is only because of the real effects of murder. If murder resulted in a pretty decent outcome for everyone, we wouldn’t think of it as bad, or at least not as bad.

The sum total of our entire civilization’s experience with murder says it is almost entirely bad, with very few exceptions.

Meanwhile, the sum of our experience with speeding also has given us a level of confidence about how bad that is. And rape. And drinking beer. And fighting. And sleeping in. All different experiences.

And most especially, in the case of rape and slavery, the bible and religion and many civilizations got that wrong because they did not account for the victims. It was “good” for the invading hordes or the plantation owners, so they considered it a relatively benign act.

Only by ignoring the supposed religious edicts, and considering the human cost of rape and slavery, were we finally able to realize the horrors of those two things.

The sum of our experiences, both in person and by learning through others, determines what we see as good or bad, and the degree which we see it as such.

And yes, the Protestant-Catholic divide absolutely demonstrates that morality is not given by a deity.

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Right, sorry. I haven’t actually read Kant and just heard of him. Ignore what I said…

I still think that there are certain very unbendable rules as to when it is wrong to kill another human being and therefore it is absolute.

And why would you say the negative effects of something are enough to make it wrong? I mean, murder can lead to bad outcomes, but only under certain circumstances. As a soldier, I assume you believe in the necessity of killing people under certain circumstances. So why can’t those circumstances extend to something that is expedient for you personally if it probably won’t harm the community as a whole all that much? After all, it’s not as if everyone’s going to murder people. You said that whether killing is wrong depends on the circumstance. Why isn’t such a circumstance described a good enough reason?

I would personally disagree with, like, all of that, but I think it’s slightly off-topic, except possibly your claim that the Catholic-Protestant divide demonstrates that morality is not given by a Deity if you don’t mind expounding on that.

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Well, Chivalric, as an individual I can justify all sorts of bad behavior. Indeed, individuals justify their own bad behavior all the time. But we don’t exist in a bubble. Nothing happens in a bubble. So everything about the second and third and fourth order of effects still applies.

Literally every phenomenon on the subject of morality is easily umderstood with this model. The history, differences of societies, why we find some things more or less moral or immoral, individuals taking advantage of the moral codes, or adhering to them, creation of laws, development of corporate values, everything. It explains why Christian morality is all over the map. And it is quite simple.

You keep trying to find a place to insert a god in the middle, but it just is not needed. Indeed, it complicates and confuses and contradicts the entire theory.

You are a good person. You don’t need a god to be good, especially your god.

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True, but as it is, we know that most people do believe in at least some absolute moral standards, so I think it might be possible to wrong others for our own temporal benefits without receiving very great repercussions.

Alright, so if we’re talking scientifically, I think, if we’re talking about models. A scientific theory is defined as mental models to account for most or all of the facts we know. For instance, we might not necessarily have all the current scientific “facts” about the theory of plate tectonics right at the moment—hence it is open to revision. I believe something about Einstein’s theory of relativity is considered not to quite work at a quantum level (I don’t know much about it myself, but that is my understanding). Still, continents to shift and it almost definitely has something to do with plates. In other words, a real explanation to plate tectonics does exist, even if we cannot be entirely sure how to explain it. I do think it is possible to explain absolute moral standards, but even if you’re right, I still think for us to create a model of a moral theory, there still must be something real to go off of.

Also, I’m just going to say, this is a bit off-topic, but Catholics and Protestants technically have a different source for doctrine, so I don’t really think that proves anything.

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Yeah, some people don’t feel comfortable not having all the answers. On the other hand, scientists go to work every day, knowing they don’t have all the answers. But we have figured things out not by supposing a deity, but by actually figuring things out. Just assuming there is a deity just beyond our reach has failed thousands upon thousands of times. There are thousands of phenomenon that were believed to be the actions of a god, that we have discovered a natural process for. We have never done it the other way around. And morality is no different. We know so much about morality now that any god hypothesis is just blatantly unnecessary. Sure, people WANT there to be an absolute morality, a final arbitrator, a supreme authority on the subject. But it is a failed idea.

Your protestant and Catholic divide is exhibit A. But there are more.

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I still don’t think that solves your problem. Scientists know they don’t have all the answers, but they’re still looking for real things. There would be no point in coming up with a theory of plate tectonics if there were not a real and absolute explanation for why continents shift. Should we not also suppose that if people can make a model for a moral code based on the world around them that there actually is a real and absolute standard they are trying to get to? That is how I see it at any rate.

As for the Catholic and Protestant divide, do you care to explain why it is that you hold that view? As I said, we technically don’t have the same source of doctrine. I understand you may not think we have a reliable historical reason for believing the traditions we as Catholics do, but that isn’t exactly relevant to this discussion.

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Hi, Chivalric. Starting with the off-topic, some poorly informed Christians, and pretty much all Christians before a couple hundred years ago, claim the bible is the ultimate moral guide. Now, since we know the bible is an utter #### show and highly immoral, many Christians avoid having to answer to the slavery, child sex trafficking, rape, murder, etc by bypassing it entirely. This is where the idea of “written on your heart” came from. By saying that, Christians can avoid having to account for genocide, for example. But let’s pretend that is true for a second, it means their source of doctrine shouldn’t matter. The actual source should transcend human doctrine. It should be the same for anyone trying to be a good person. But obviously, this is not the case. So “written on our heart” is a failed proposition.

Back to the main point, I’m not trying to make this a scientific discussion, merely a logical one. But the fact remains that science is the one thing we humans do that really, really, really, really doesn’t allow wild ### guessing and logical fallacies. So thinking “scientifically” just basically means being strict with all the illogical stuff.

So plate tectonics, evolution, morality, gravity, and electromagnetism all have perfectly logical, well evidenced, real world explanations. Even if we haven’t worked out every single detail, we have enough of a picture to know how it works. Basically, plate tectonics happens because we have a molten core that has thermal churning in somewhat defined currents, which tears apart or smashes together the floating crust on the surface. Everything ee know supports that theory. What we know about density works. What we know about heat and cool in liquids works. What we see in the geological and fossil record works. There are hundreds of lines of evidence that support this theory. So if we arent exactly sure where a certain island used to sit next to, it doesn’t destroy the theory. And most importantly for our discussion, we dont feel the need to explain a particular island as being popped into existence by a deity.

This is what you are doing with morality. We are a social species, and an intelligent species. That’s all we need to explain the development of a moral code, and it explains all the facts. We don’t need to inject a “god did it” reason. Murder is really wrong in almost every culture because it has a major impact on people. Speeding, not so much. Other things formerly totally okay we have come to recognize as wrong, such as slavery and child sex trafficking. None of these examples have ever been absolute, nor have any of these examples always had the same level of “wrongness” associated with them. It’s just what we collectively decide, in a messy, non-linear, both centralized and uncentralized manner over time.

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I’d like to keep this blog family-friendly, so would you please mind not inserting curse words? Thanks.

Yeah…I still do not quite see how this is relevant. The “written in your heart” idea is in the Bible pretty explicitly. I’m just going to say, however, that according to the Catholic understanding of Scripture and Tradition, rape and genocide are sins. As for what the Early Church believed on Apostolic Tradition, you can see this for further details https://www.catholic.com/tract/apostolic-tradition

That is true, but we still cannot “prove” these theories in a strict sense since they’re all from inductive reasoning. There was a time when, according to the Ptolemaic model of the solar system was popular among the best scientists—an idea which is now completely opposed to modern astronomy. But we were still trying to get closer to the real model of the universe. I don’t see how that can happen if there isn’t some absolute standard somewhere out there which we actually want to reach.

And again, I don’t really see why societies have to “collectively decide” these things if murder can still be expedient to the individual.

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Hi, Chivalric. I apologize and am glad you edited them out. I will be extra careful in the future.

We can, actually, “prove” (demonstrate) this “messy over time” hypothesis. Here are some specific things we can look for to see if this is correct.

1) Not only would different societies have different morality, the morality could be traced to specific features of that society including demographics, geography, their economy, and interconnectedness with other societies.
2) We could observe a history of debate and cultural shifts on the society at large.
3) We would expect cutures that are assimilated by others to shift their moral paradigm. Sometimes this would be seamless, othertimes there would be conflict, but the result would be some sort of hybrid.
4) We would expect some moral paradigms to shift gradually, while others shift after significant events. But shifting will always happen.
5) We can expect that throughout human history, morality would be kindest to the small group or tribe when the groups are generally disassociated, but as groups and tribes interconnect, morality will be more inclusive to the whole.
6) We can expect morality of equal interconnected tribes or societies to be equitable to both, while tribes or societies with a superior advantage over another will not extend equitable morality to the other.
7) We would expect the moral teachings of religions to change over time, staying with the trends of the society at large. If the religion is a strong force in the society, the religion will lag and change slower compared to the general consensus. If the religion is not a major force of everyday morality, it will adapt more easily.
8) We would expect things that are morally reprehensible in one culture to be completely normal on another, working both ways. It would be highly unlikely (but possible) any one culture would have a moral code completely agreeable to any other culture.

I think that is a decent list of things we can test that would confirm the messy theory. And to be completely honest, I just made up that list, and I did so by thinking about it big picture. If I am right, and morals are not somehow given by a deity, then that means people are making it up and we would expect the kinds of things we see in this list. Before we start digging, do you agree that these are the expected results, and things we can test, regarding “messy morality”?

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Thank you.

“Before we start digging, do you agree that these are the expected results, and things we can test, regarding “messy morality”?” I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that statement. If you’re asking me if, are all the above statements true, whether I would accept your messy morality hypothesis as a reasonable solution, in a sense, I might agree with that—at least, generally speaking such a “moral” code could develop. However, although it would be necessary in general if someone wished society to continue, I don’t see why the individual has to follow them knowing already that most people will and therefore society will continue, if he can reap personal benefit from it.

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You bet, Chivalric.

Individuals can still make their own assessments and justify their behavior. And indeed, individuals that do engage in criminal or immoral behavior justify that behavior in their own reasoning. This is criminal justice 101. Everyone knows this happens. (I should probably let you know I have an undergraduate degree in criminal justice, a Masters in Public Policy, and worked in a prison for a time in the 1990s.) Every convicted criminal has justified their action, everything from “I was starving” to “they deserved it” to “it was a mistake” to “I just wondered what it would be like to kill 4 people.” I actually had these conversations with inmates.

So yes, individuals make their own decisions. But we judge them (either formally ((court)) or informally ((community rejection)) based on the rammifications of our community. The inmate I spoke to that shot 4 people with a shotgun out of curiosity suffered zero effect in his personal life. But the effect to others means so much more. Those four people’s death means anguish and suffering of the families, but also a reduced sense of security for the community, reduced meaning of life, reduced future income, family, and prosperity, a giant financial burden, a workplace burden for loss of employer, reduction of parental assets for children, etc, etc, etc. The list of effects is long and devastating to both the family and the community. So it receives, rightfully, a severe punishment. And even unpunished, this seemingly unaffected individual now faces a reality where life is cheap, and his or his family could be next.

It’s kind of like organized crime. They do lots of illegal stuff- including murder- with seeming impunity. But then again, they tend to be killed with enough frequency that dying “with your boots off” (I.e. in bed asleep, of natural causes) is rare enough to earn this actual turn of phrase.

Imagine living in a world where dying of something other than murder was seen as a big deal. Very few people find that an attractive proposition. So in response, we collectively agree that murder is bad, and should be punished severely. And we teach this to our children, and make laws as such.

Yes, the effects are not always felt individually. We make them so to dissuade the action.

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Yes, I can imagine (you probably have more experience with hardened criminals than I do, in that case).

I agree, by the way, that such actions are utterly disturbing and, frankly, “messed up”. I think, however, that in a way this comes to my original question: why do we have to protect the community? Yes, shooting four people will make misery to the families of others, but my question is: why do you care? You said earlier it was moral to kill someone from a separate tribe which had nothing to do with one’s self. Yes, it is not a nice feeling for the majority of people to do such things knowing their own family could experience the same thing, but that does not make it wrong, in my view.

I completely agree with you that if everyone committed the same crimes, society would fail. However, I don’t see why that alone would make things wrong in individual matters. If you are murdering one person in secret without anyone ever finding out, I doubt it would actually effect society much as a whole just as it does not effect your body much as a whole to eat one cookie—but no one should ever eat a hundred in one sitting.

(I apologize if anything I said was unclear; I was sort of in a hurry when I wrote this)

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Good morning, Chivalric. I had to think about this a while, because as far as I understood it, I have already completely accounted for all aspects of morality with my explanation. But I think, looking back, that maybe I am assuming something here that you aren’t noticing. So I’ll hang on this for a minute and see if that clears everything up.

I think where we are missing is on empathy. I felt I accounted for this with the whole “would you kill your family members” line of reasoning, but I didn’t do a good job of expanding that out as I continued. Empathy is the term that describes feeling the plight of others. This is MOST easily recognizable within the family, which is why I use that visual.

Empathy is not something we learn to do. As humans, we don’t have a lot of hereditary (or instinctive) behaviors. But empathy is one of them. We know this because not only do all humans show empathy, we can actually see empathy in other animals as well. And the social species show more empathy than the non-social species. Rats show empathy, albeit with less refinement. All the primates show an intense amount of empathy. I’m not going to launch into a classroom lecture here, but sufficed to say that empathy is something humans do instinctively as a trait that has developed and grown strong through evolution. Without empathy, our species wouldn’t have survived long enough to start inventing religions.

So what causes our societies to want and demand and adhere to morality and laws? Empathy. Instead of being the murderer or the murdered, let’s instead place ourselves as a witness to the murder. If we see someone killing another person, we feel a strong sense of panic and fear just through empathy, and are often compelled to stop it. If we see someone being treated like crap, we also are upset and want it to stop. Because of empathy, we have a sense of wanting things to be fair, and laws and moral codes make things fair.

And again, I must remind you that since morality is messy and has been refined with age, moral codes and laws have been less-than-fair in the past. But the empathy of millions of people, over time, produces laws and morality that account for those that were previously treated as lesser humans. And indeed, this continues on this very day.

So to answer your question, the actions of the individual don’t just affect the individuals involved because of empathy. Empathy is instinctive in all humans, but it isn’t instructive. We still have to figure out how to organize such that we feel positive in society because others are treated well.

It’s a messy process, this morality. But that is reality. There are over 7 billion people on the planet right now, which means over 7 billion individuals doing their best to take care of themselves as individuals, take care of their families, take care of their communities, and take care of humanity on some level. And we were preceded by billions of other people, also doing the same thing. Each working to make things a bit better. Sometimes making it worse. Sometimes overriding empathy with idealism, or power, or money. But the process plods along.

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(as an irrelevant side note, babies have shown to have some really cool instinctive behaviors, but anyway…)

Yes, empathy, pity, compassion, I think all these words roughly encompass the thing you are referring to. I admit my knowledge is limited in the empathy found in animals (although, if I may say so, I have been researching rats today as part of a collaborative project I’ve been working on). There’s a sense in which I agree with you, since I see why empathy would lead you to treat other human beings with respect. However, that doesn’t cause moral codes, in my view. It simply aids people in following them. Empathy can lead us to avoid randomly killing someone. I don’t think that alone makes it wrong to resist such an urge any more than it is in itself wrong to resist the urge to eat for one reason or another. Furthermore, there is a condition called Antisocial Personality Disorder—more commonly known as psychopathy. Such persons, I believe, lack empathy and it would still obviously be wrong to kill them. In other words, even with this in mind, I think there has to be something outside of ourselves for a moral code to actually matter—and frankly I don’t see the necessity at all times to maintain human society under all circumstances according to your worldview.

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Chivalric, we have people punching each other in stores over wearing a face covering during a global pandemic, arguing if it is moral to potentially infect others. So yeah, people get quite emotional about issues that touch on their sense of morality. If people are willing to physically fight over where and how long you wear a little piece of cloth, I’m pretty darned sure the more serious issues will hold people’s attention.

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I’m slightly confused as to how that is relevant. I apologize if I didn’t understand your previous argument correctly (and please correct me if I am misrepresenting you at any point). I agree that more serious issues will hold people’s attention generally, but there are certain people (for instance, psychopaths) who will not be willing to hold to moral codes based on the feeling of empathy alone. I think we still need to look outside of ourselves as the starting point to where a moral code begins.

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Chivalric, I guess I don’t understand how that does anything BUT demonstrate that morality is a messy, community venture.

Psychopaths don’t follow morality. Yep. But since nearly everyone else has agreed on the severity and respective punishment, we deal with that in our morality and laws.

Yes, we look outside ourselves. We look to the hard lessons learned by messy, community based morality.

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In the final analysis, morality ends up as an individual choice, not that the community/culture does not have a very strong influence on this. But the individual has to face moral decisions all the time, and their conscience – or whatever you may call it – prompts them to do the right thing, but there is free will, and they are the final arbiter.

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Wait…could you please explain to me precisely how empathy fits into your theory of “messy morality”? I’m getting the impression you’re saying empathy is the “first cause” of it.

As for psychopaths, my point was that they lack empathy to the extent that they can’t be expected (I believe) to live morally based on that alone. However, we still expect them to live morally (I hope) and not hurt other people unjustly.

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Hi, Chivalric. Bottom to top, because why not.

Psychopaths. Yes, we would LIKE for them to live morally. But they lack some fairly important cognitive processes. Full disclosure, I have a child on the autism spectrum. So I do have some first hand knowledge working with cognitive disabilities, albeit limited to my personal experiences. But I also am more aware of cognitive disorders in general because of it.

So, because their brain processes things in a different way, we may see odd things manifest. My child reacts quite violently to things that would be rather mundane to the rest of us. In the moment, this mundane to us thing becomes so overwhelming that he reacts similarly to if we encountered a situation like drowning, which is to say violent thrashing and panic. Now, we still try to encourage him in his calm times to reflect on this in terms of what it means to others, and he totally gets it. In fact, once over an episode he becomes extremely remorseful because he KNOWS he did the wrong thing. But at the time, he just felt extreme panic. He is not a bad kid. But in the moment, his weighing of cause and effect were skewed. He overestimated one factor while underestimating another in the moment.

That we have people with cognitive disabilities offers us a fine study group on how morality works. Every individual is constantly weighing their emotions and effects. They get it wrong more often, but the process is still there.

Forget “first cause”. The evolution of morality didn’t start at any one time or place. It’s like asking what is the “first cause” of being old. “Old” is a fairly common term, but to really dive down and figure out when someone suddenly becomes old is just silly. We were young, we will be old, and there’s all the stuff in the middle. Empathy is a mechanism by which humans are driven to improve their morality. And if we weren’t able to communicate and pass along information, morality would have never progressed. And if we had never faced increasingly complex societies, morality would have never progressed. Once we were generally immoral, barely upright walking apes on the savannah, now we are fairly moral. There was a lot in the middle.

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Yes, I can imagine. I’m not sure if I know anyone with autism myself (although I know someone who has Down syndrome, which is even worse, I think). I would say, rather, that we would not only “like” psychopaths to live upright lives but still blame them if they do not. We may not blame them as much as we would blame someone of sound mind, but we’d still blame them if they were to kill someone who is innocent, albeit perhaps not to quite as great of a degree or we could find a greater level of understanding to them. But their actions are still wrong. Psychopaths have the capacity for doing what is right and we have the right to prevent them from doing evil, by force if need be, because they are not doing what is right.

To begin with, if your question is: what is the first cause, or source, of becoming old, I would say time—a very simple answer. If you mean the cause of aging, I would say cellular degeneration (I think; my biology isn’t the best, but that sounds right…). So I don’t think it’s that hard to suppose that there is one original thing which led to the necessity of a moral code.

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Chivalric, look into aging sometime. There are many, many things that contribute to aging. And it takes place slowly. So slowly we don’t even notice it on a daily basis. Or even a weekly basis.

Morality is the same. Various influences including empathy (or compassion), our instinct for survival, our instinct to protect our family, the usefulness of community both emotionally and practically, pragmatism, trust, our desire to explore and enjoy life… All factors that shape our morality.

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There are many factors, but I was trying to pinpoint it into one primary source, and I think that works.

I still don’t see why there can’t be many self-centered exceptions with individuals, however.

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Chivalric, there are exceptions. Really.

There are people that think the world is flat. We disregard them and still continue to plan airline routes based on the globe model, because the globe model gets you from Australia to South America a lot faster. (I can explain that further if you don’t understand the reference)

We tried living under psychopathic morality, and it did not work. Examples include George III, Hitler, Stalin, Caligula, Ivan the Terrible, and bible god.

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I don’t entirely get the reference, but I agree that it is probably easiest to fly over Antarctica. I’ve seen the “flat earth map” before and I agree that could raise some problems (not to mention the proportional size of Greenland in comparison to New Zealand).

As a side note, I’m not sure if it’s fair to call George III’s morality “psychopathic”, even if you think he was wrong on certain points. But that is irrelevant. You’re saying, I presume, that it did not work to maintain society—which leads us back to the previous discussion about why we have to preserve societies in general. In that case, I don’t really see why empathy, as you call it, is relevant.

Also, there are other factors, but I’m speaking in primary terms. So, if you had to pin morality on one source or at least one starting point, could you say what it was?

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I dont think you can pin it on any singular “silver bullet.” Without societies, we wouldn’t require morality. Without the need for each other to accomplish tasks, we wouldn’t need morality. Without empathy, we wouldn’t need morality. If we were breeding capable within the first few years of our lives, we wouldn’t need morality.

Actually, yes. I could presumably place it on one singular thing, and that would be reproduction. If we could reproduce like flies or non-social species, we could presumably not require morality, because our species would still continue. But given our biology, morality must exist or our survival would be unlikely.

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As a side note, I doubt I’ll be able to keep up with the conversation going on between you and Water at the same time.

I honestly think, although aging is more complicated than that, if you were to pin it on one “silver bullet”, as you call it, it would be the degeneration of one’s cells or something along those lines.

Alright, that is an interesting thought. So what you are saying is that humans wouldn’t end up having to reproduce in order to continue our species if we didn’t have morality. I guess my next question is why it is so important for humanity to continue. (honestly, the genocide of humanity would probably be doing the ecosystem a favor).

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Chivalric, its hard enough for me to keep up, I have to keep looking back at what I said previously! Lol!

Degeneration of cells is probably what ultimately kills us, but lots of things make us “old.” I’m learning that more each day….. :/

And lastly, I have to applaud you. Honestly and sincerely. You are absolutely right in asking why human life matters, especially in light of how damaging we are to the ecosystem. We can look at it in two ways. 1) It doesn’t. As a destructive species, it would be better if we went extinct. 2) Well, I’m a human. And my kids are human. And their kids will be human. If we can quit being destructive, we can both “live long and prosper” without ruining our ecosystem.

This is actually why morality is, again, shifting for many groups. I feel like we talked about eating cats a long time ago??? Anyway, the point is some people now believe it is immoral to eat animals not only because we are killing thinking animals, but because of how much energy and plant acreage it takes to produce meat. It is a very real moral question. I mean, I love a steak or bacon as much as the next guy, but if we all eat less meat, can we extend a good life for our future generations? Well, probably yes. So what do we do? We have to figure it out. Which really means your generation is going to live with the decisions that happen now.

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What do you mean by “old”? As I said, oldness comes ultimately from time.

(I agree, by the way, that if we had morality comparable to that of rats, we would probably die out as a species) Frankly, I do not think it is immoral to eat a cat, but I recognize that some people are probably under that impression, and animals in general (as one who thinks a pig would make the ideal pet). That is true. As you said, we can look at this in two ways. I assume you look at it the second way. I guess what I’m wondering is what is wrong with looking at it the first way. You said that there would be nothing wrong if you went back in time to when societies were not so interconnected, to kill someone from another tribe. So I guess what I’m wondering is why you care—why you have to care, about your descendants whom you’ll probably never meet. Does human life have value? If so, whence does it come?

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Yes, but surely if you love them, it must be because you attribute actual worth to them? Are you including people you’ve never met before and never will meet, such as your great-great grandchildren?

And you still haven’t answered my question: does human life have more value than, for instance, the life of a car?

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Why can’t I just love them? Why do they have to be utilitarian?

And I did answer your question, but you keep fighting the answer. You keep hoping I will somehow believe that a good enough reason isnt good enough, and I’ll long for some singular magic bullet answer.

There are no magic bullets in life. None. Everything requires some work, or some thought, or some exceptions, or some difficulty. Good enough is how the world turns. Great would be no taxes, full benefits, and an unending bank account. But good enough is I work and provide for a comfortable living. Good enough is two towns can agree on municipal boundaries. Good enough is the things we think are bad are criminal. And good enough is I love my family and humans more than cars, because I am a human.

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I mean, you can, but some people love their cars dearly—almost too dearly. If one is willing to save his car at the expense of a human life, that is problematic.

I apologize if I misunderstood you. So, if I am correct (and, again, correct me if I am wrong) is that we should value humans above other creatures and things because they are what we are. I suppose I would then ask if someone (who may or may not be a member of the KKK) were to tell you, “I love my fellow white men more than black people because I am white; I therefore treat their lives as if they are of more value”, what would you say? (and to end all questions, I definitely do not make that argument)

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Hi, Chivalric. Yes, you misunderstood me. No worries.

There is no magic rule that we “should” value humans more than cars. We do because of literally everything we have discussed. Love. Empathy. Compassion. Family. Children. Practical living. Community. Business. Health. Happiness. Safety.

Those are all really good reasons to value human life. And also very good reasons not to be racist.

Are some people idiots? Yes. They think being horrible to some people is okay. Are some catholics horrible to people in the LGBTQ community? Also yes. And both for the same reason.

And while you could take that as a swipe on Catholicism, it was really made to illustrate that people still have horrible ethics and morality. We have not even come close to just basic respect for all humans.

“Messy morality” explains this. “Written on their heart” morality fails even basic reality.

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Well, that comes to a number of other questions to each one of these, but I guess the basis of my reasoning (as we have already discussed) is that I guess I’m not convinced that all of these are useful in every circumstance for the individual (as Cicero’s finding a helpless rich man on the road example which I brought up earlier). I suppose you could use the things you mentioned as a guide for practical living at best, but I don’t think it would be good reason to do anything heroic. I think all of those come down ultimately to self-interest. You might avoid killing people because if people do that the community will collapse and you live in the community. You might not kill people to avoid being killed yourself. But it’s sort of an oxymoron (especially if you’re an atheist) to give your life to save others whom you don’t even know out of your own self-interest. As for empathy and compassion, well, I still don’t see why human behavior should be bound to that, but I gave my reasoning earlier so I want to bore you by it again.

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Yeah, you seem to keep searching for some ultimate figurative wall, where everyone runs into the wall and knows it is there. It clearly is not. Look around the world and you can see this is clearly not so. Hell, just review the history of the Catholic church. It’s one of the largest criminal organizations in the world.

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It just gets to the idea of morality borne from collective experience v divinely inspired. Divinely inspired morality keeps getting it wrong. Collective morality does as well, but we expect that. We expect divine morality not to be wrong. Yet it is. Over and over. The Catholic church demonstrates that.

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Even if that were true, I still don’t see how this is relevant to my original point that at best, I still couldn’t see your version of morality leading anyone to do anything heroic (at least not for a rational reason).

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Hi, Chivalric. Now you are really out of your element, and squarely in mine. I’ve been in combat. I’ve been shot at by small arms AND ballistic missiles. I’ve had bombs blow up under my vehicle.

When things are bad, you fight for your team that you have become close to. Some soldiers become closer to their fellow soldiers than they are to their spouses. When things get bad, people get really serious about protecting each other. Heroics is a mixture of extreme survival instinct mixed with a camaraderie unfound outside combat, and a healthy dose of training.

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I’m going to expand on that. Combat soldiers do their job already knowing they are going to die. It’s just a realization you have to come to, or else you will be useless. We were all just dead men walking. That was our mindset.

I didnt say war was fun.

Sacrificing yourself to save other people, when you are already dead, is not extreme or illogical.

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Yes, I remember you said earlier you were a veteran. I’m sure I’ve never experienced anything like what you did. Yes, I understand survival and I understand attachments to other soldiers. However, I still don’t see why you ought to do it. There’s a sense in which a very courageous person wants to help his friends and will therefore give his life for them on that account because he loves them. But, first of all, even if you weren’t a soldier and you saw a complete stranger in danger of death, you still ought to do what you can to save the person. But if we are following moral codes to protect our communities because we don’t like to live in communities without order. But that would be out of self-interest. Now, you’ll probably say that it is because you love them. But what gives human beings worth to be protected and loved? Now you said earlier that you love them because you’re human and they’re human, but as I said, I don’t see why you can’t say the same especially of whatever race or ethnicity you are a part of.

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Chivalric, I have explained everything thoroughly. I have accounted for basic morality, increasingly advanced morality, morality for major instances, morality for medium or minor instances, the rise of moral codes in societies, why people as a group adhere to moral codes, the need for each of us to act as moral agents, morality despite variations in the population, and morality and heroism in combat. We have diacussed the failure of any religious understanding of morality to account for a lot of morality. We have discussed the failure of religious morality in preventing moral choices, indeed often the detrimental effects of religious morality. We have compared and contrasted these hypotheses against the real world.

Literally the only question I have not answered is where some deity fits in. This is because we don’t need a deity. We do not need an absolite motivation for all people. Motivation is just as complicated and multi-faceted as morality, and you seem to want a silver bullet, tidy singular dude with a white beard ruling and judging things. If you expect this, you will always be dissapointed.

With continued learning and experiences and exposure to other cultures (this is not just you as a youth, I know a lot of adults that have never seen outside their own tri-county area), you will mature (Again, as should these adults that have never seen outside their own tri-county area) and recognize that the human experience is both wonderful and vast. Soak in that, my friend, and maybe we can do this some other time.

I’m still open to specific questions anytime, but I think you know all the answers now, you just need to try it for yourself.

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You explained that, but I was under the impression that I had responded to all or most of that. I just responded, for instance, to your argument for why heroism makes sense without God. I apologize if there is anything I neglected to respond to, but I think I made responses to most of these things, even if you do not agree with them.

At any rate, however, I think this all comes down to one thing which is central to Christian morality and probably yours as well, which would be love (and correct me if I am wrong). You help others because you love them. You said you love a human more than a car because you are human. I have responded to that above twice now, but I still don’t quite understand your response.

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Yeah, call it love, call it compassion, call it empathy. I’m fine with any of those.

It basically comes down to, I feel you keep pressing for something exact and specific. Using my aging analogy, it is like pressing to find out exactly what makes someone old, or exactly when they are old. Cells lose their ability to divide over time. Cholesterol numbers increase over time. Hair greys over time. Bone density is lost over time. Gravity sags things over time. Our backs and knees and other joints degrade in various ways over time. Eyes begin failing over time from age or UV exposure or disease. Our poor diet decisions compound over time. Alcohol use impedes our brains or livers over time. Our muscles recover slower over time. Etc.

All of these contribute to aging. But none of them are the silver bullet. And none of them happen at one particular moment.

When societies are young, morality is different than in mature societies because of their contact with other groups, trade, geography, political structures, resources, social investments, beliefs, practices, and compassion all change over time.

I love a person over a car for lots of reasons, none of which are religious. A car is a man made object, a human is born and grows. Cars are easily replaceable, humans are not. I can have a relationship with a human, not a car. A human can love me back. A human can be a friend, lover, confidant, partner, team member, mentor, intellectual equal, or motivator. Or all of the above. A car is a tool.

Which brings up this interesting thought exercise. If in the future, we design and build robots that become self aware, how should we treat them? Equal to humans? Less than humans but more than animals? Less than animals? The same as cars? Just the mere fact that scientists and/or sci-fi writers contemplate these things demonstrates how morality is a process of human application of thought to a situation, not an edict.

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I think there is still an ultimate cause to that. As I said, something is old ultimately on account of time. Hair, bones, height, are all separate things which have separate causes to some extent, but there is some cause of getting old—time if nothing else (I imagine you could get closer than that, but I’ll go with that). But I don’t see how that effects this present situation unless you are saying that morality is more than one thing.

I mean, I personally already have an answer to that, which would be the same as cars (I may or may not have finished writing a Christian novel in which included an extremely cheerful and friendly android, but you can ignore that…) Anyway, I think I have a number of other questions to follow up. Do you judge the intrinsic worth of an object by what sort of relationship you are able to have with that object? If so, why? Second, since you have brought up animals, are we higher than the animals or any animals? If so, in what manner? If not, I believe you said that you are alright with eating them, so I would like to know why that is.

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I don’t see or need an ultimate cause of morality to explain the real world. I could invent an ultimate cause, but it just is not needed to explain the real world. It is only useful in explaining an ideological world. But I would make up all sorts of stuff if we are just day dreaming. (Really friendly robots have a place in this made up world as well.)

Is relationship worth the only value I place on things? Nope. Again, just one of them. One of many. I was using that as an example.

I eat animals. I do so because I was raised to do so, but obviously this is not a good intellectual argument. But one argument I have used is that animals don’t have a developed sense of self. They may be self-aware in that they know they are one animal among others, but they don’t have the capacity for abstract thinking, meaning they dont plan for the future, save up for a rainy day, contemplate their existence, march in support of the rights of their fellow species, or even really notice of their neighbor up and disappears.

So as far as I am aware, taking animals for food doesn’t affect their well being, but it does support ours. On the other hand, abusing animals does affect their well being. So I’m against it.

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Fair enough. I’m still doubtful that there couldn’t be something, but I’m not sure if it’s relevant at the moment. (yes…I may have a hobby of writing adventure novels and be unable to resist the urge to include something “cute”, such as little robots or, more frequently, talking animals).

I guess I still don’t see why you hold human life as so valuable in that case. Your other reasons might be interesting, but at the same time, if we are going to talk about relationships, I’d question why you think that is even one reason why something is more valuable.

First of all, I’m fairly sure that certain animals do plan for the future. If I recall correctly, ants have developed a form of agriculture. I also imagine the mother of a chimp would be sad if her child were to die, so they can have sympathy for each other to some degree. I think dogs have been known to try to comfort their owners to some degree. Furthermore, generally speaking, if you were to try to kill a wild boar, the boar would try to escape, suggesting he doesn’t want to die. Also, I think your arguments could also work for babies and most likely persons who are severely intellectually challenged. They do not necessarily plan for the future, save up for a rainy day, contemplate existence, or march in support of rights for fellow human beings. Yet I assume (and really, really hope) you agree we shouldn’t eat them.

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Chivalric, I never ever once said that morality is an absolute rule. So if I give you a quick overview on my personal morality on eating meat, this is not an absolute dogmatic statement that applies to everything. It is just what I said, a general rule.

Generally speaking, ants don’t think at all. They are nearly completely acting by instinct and chemical reaction. Primates, our closest cousins in evolution, have a pretty high degree of mental capability. Notice I’ll smash an ant without thinking, but would defend a primate over anything but a human. This is all very consistent with what I said.

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Yes, I remember you said morality is not absolute. Alright, I understand that. I guess I’m afraid is that you’re saying you are defending primates the most because they are closest to humans. In some ways, I think certain studies of chimps suggest they are in some ways more intelligent than humans—at any rate, they have been known to outdo humans in memory tasks. Furthermore, you still haven’t answered my point about babies and intellectually challenged individuals. I think pigs and dolphins are more intelligent than babies. I’m also fairly sure these animals don’t like dying—and even so, even if there weren’t enough scientific evidence to conclude that such animals are very intelligent or want to live, there’s no knowing what might be discovered later and at any rate, I think it is wisest to err on the safe side.

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There is definitely a movement to quit eating meat for moral reasons, exactly for these very reasons. There is actually a major world religion that won’t harm ANY living thing, even for food. (Janists, in case you are curious.) They won’t eat anything that kills the living thing, which means meat and carrots are out, nuts and fruit are okay. They will wear masks in some situations as to not accidentally inhale and kill bugs. Way back when I said there are moral systems today that would make modern western morality look barbaric, I was thinking of the Jane’s.

So yes, the morality of eating animals, or even plants, is always a conversation I am willing to have. But for now I’m okay where I’m at in my morality there.

Both babies and the disabled (mentally and physically) were groups that, in history and in some places today, are given a lesser moral status. Again, people come down on this all over the place. And once again, I have a place I’m comfortable morally. (My son has a cognitive disability. I love him dearly.)

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Yes, I’ve heard of that.

Yes, they have been mistreated in history (including by the Spartans, by the way). But I assume you think that is wrong. I’m sure you love your son dearly, as you definitely should. I don’t know how severe your son’s disability is (I think you said earlier he had autism, unless that was my imagination). A friend of mine actually has down-syndrome, if you want to know. I’m wondering why you think we should have a moral code concerning such persons with serious intellectual disabilities so as to place them over animals (I think we’ve been moving over a wide range of topics regarding morality, but this is an interesting thing to talk about, and I think it’s worth discussing as well).

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Hi, Chivalric. I just said something in reply to JonnyCatholic that I want to reiterate here.

Really, it doesn’t matter what I specifically think. Morality evolves. And when I say it evolves, I mean the scientific definition of evolution describes how we got our morality. Everyone’s moral sense is a bit different (variation). Pressures are put on these variations (societies) and some of the variations thrive while others do not.(selection). These selected traits are passed down to the next generation by our ability to communicate.

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Sorry for the late reply (you know how life can be and I had to think about this comment anyway) I don’t see how that relates to why you think you ought not to cannibalize the intellectually disabled. The whole point of this discussion is considering our contrasting views of morality, so I don’t see how it doesn’t matter what you think.

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That’s a good track. Same with evolution, over a long time. No issues with that.
Looking at the old testament it is evident that God took a very primitive people and over a very long time gradually introduced a higher morality and demanded higher standards, seen from a Christian point of view.

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Hi, Water. Good to hear from you again. You have made a very good point in a hypothetical sense. Shifting people’s perspective can take time, and an all-knowing god would leverage that part of humanity.

But this breaks down when we measure it against reality. The first, and most obvious point, is that your god has never bothered to update his moral code. He left us with a code where slavery and sex trafficking is okay, for example. If he actually was trying to move humanity in a moral direction, he seems to have forgotten to come back to work.

Secondly, he specifically ordered genocide and sex trafficking and slavery. If your god was trying to move us in a moral direction, he failed. His actions, per the bible, make Hitler look like a child. These words have been used in the thousands of years since to make a lot of people’s lives somewhere between very miserable and dead. I’m not a diplomat, but I could easily brainstorm a better strategy to both protect the population and facilitate a superior moral code in the community. Hell, I don’t even have to try, because other cultures in the region at the time were establishing codes that were more humanitarian and more diverse.

Third, your god literally ordered men to snip off their foreskin. I can not think of a more emasculating thing than messing with a guy’s genitalia. But this god ordered it. And people obeyed. If your god had ordered that people were never to be properly of others, that women and men were equal, and that all children should be treated with respect and be allowed to be educated, he could have truly shown himself great. Instead, your god missed a great opportunity in deference to bronze-aged morality. This is not great. This is mediocre.

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Good to be conversing in a more civilised way.
“your god has never bothered to update his moral code”. Have you read Jesus’ teachings? He establishes a new covenant, which replaces the old covenant. Just as his apostles replace the old testament priests and dispense the new order.
“I could easily brainstorm a better strategy”. Ideas are great, but they do not change people’s hearts. God works with what he has, people as they are, who are free to accept or reject him. He wants to change people’s hearts, and we are his co-workers, we also have a part to play in the scheme of things, and to the extent that we fail to do so – and we all fail in this – we shall be brought to account.
Certainly the peoples in Canaan at the time the Israelites moved from Egypt were not ” establishing codes that were more humanitarian and more diverse.”. They practiced child sacrifice and other horrible things.
I’m not sure what your problem is with circumcision. It has health benefits and reduces infections, etc. Granted there is a risk at the time it is done, “on the eighth day”.

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Right, your god has not bothered to update his moral code. Slavery is still okay for Jesus. The new testament moral codes are just as bronze aged, just as tribal, and just as uncaring and immoral for anyone outside the very few “chosen” people.

Yes, I can change “hearts” as well. And seemingly better and quicker than your god. We literally have entire sections of military operations dedicated to this task. Nations are constantly messaging to others. And cable news has introduced wild mood swings among large parts of the population. Things that were routine 100 years ago are completely criminal today. And good leaders in politics and industries have re-shaped what we mean to be better to ourselves and the environment. Human beings change “hearts” and minds every day. Again, this is a really mediocre to low quality job by your god.

As to more humanitarian and diverse, I was thinking of the Greeks primarily, but there are others.

Circumcision- my problem is it is stupid and unnecessary, and it actually has no health benefits that cant be obtained by regular hygiene. It is actually more likely to result in an adverse health situation than provide any benefit. But my point was not that it can be done safely or not today, my point was that if you were ordered to castrate just one of your testicles, you would really flinch. This seems emasculating. The only reason we don’t see circumcision as emasculating is we were all clipped as kids. But if we were an ancient tribal community, and we were all ordered to chop a little part of our masculinity off, that seems like a pretty clear sign of emasculation. Yet they all did it. And they did it back in the days with non-sterilized primitive metals, and where the rabbi had to literally bite off the section of skin. Not only is this horribly disgusting on many levels, but it certainly lead to lots of unnecessary deaths from infection. All to emasculate the population. Yet they did it. So he for sure could have told them slavery was bad.

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People this summer felt emasculated by having to wear a piece of cloth over their face. So I dont find it a strong suggestion at all. Literally chopping off a section of a man’s genitalia is a pretty emasculating move.

As for Jesus’ supposed teaching, that has nothing to do with our conversation, other than to say he still endorsed slavery. Jesus got morality wrong. I don’t care of he said love your neighbor, because he didn’t care abought the plight of his neighbor’s slaves. I can find better moral mentors.

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My heart pumps blood, nothing else. It is not only fine, but by some “sciency” stuff we can determine how healthy it is pumping. I’m actually quite well.

But I noticed you avoided the fact that Jesus endorsed slavery. This is literally what I was talking about when I noted that despite this supposed extremely slow change that god had in mind to get us to a moral place, he has not appeared nor provided an update since slavery was the norm. And sex trafficking. I hate to sound pessimistic, but has your god been fired? Or on an extended absence for cause, maybe?

We have 2000 years of figuring out morality without your god, and have finally made some progress as people have lost faith in those archaic moral codes. Your god has not only not helped, but impeded moral progression.

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Trying again. Looks like this did not reach you: Read Paul about Onesimus, a slave, and understand that Christianity is not so much about changing structures than about changing hearts.
If you love someone you’ll treat them as yourself. Of course, that requires a fundamental change in attitude. But it is the only change that brings man’s humanity to its fullness.

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Exactly, Water. God could have easily said “thou shall not own people, period” and people would have obeyed. Even Paul, who supposedly made a living being a bigot, was able to see that slaves could be treated like human. Your god did not do that. Your god doubled down on owning people.

So we are at a place where your god either is immoral himself, is to weak to change people’s minds, or is an invention of people. (Spoiler alert: correct answer is the third)

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Read Paul about Onesimus, a slave, and understand that Christianity is not so much about changing structures than about changing hearts.
If you love someone you’ll treat them as yourself. Of course, that requires a fundamental change in attitude. But it is the only change that brings man’s humanity to its fullness.

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Spartan, this is a bit off-topic from the previous discussion, but if you’re interested, I actually wrote a post on some of the things you mentioned a while back. https://thecatholicofhonor.wordpress.com/2021/03/17/qa-is-pastafarian-morality-more-reasonable-than-christian-morality/ (Ignore the fact that it’s directed toward Pastafarians…)

Also, about circumcision, that is still a practice for medical reasons that doctors sometimes do to babies in hospitals. All things considered, there are a lot of worse things that could be done to masculine genitalia…

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I’m replying to this comment, but, for better or worse, I read almost all 240+ comments here. God only knows why. Not that the conversation isn’t interesting! But I certainly have other responsibilities. Dereliction of duty, for sure.

First, with The Chivalric Catholic, I offer you my thanks for your service in the military as well. We have no idea what all of you go through, and I am very grateful. I also respect, very much, your conscience, your sense of compassion and empathy. I am sorry about what your son goes through.

I say all that partly cause I want you to know that you are not just a username on here to me. I try to recognize the person on the other end as a real person.

That being said, I do heartily disagree with you on quite a few things, and please don’t take this the wrong way. I just feel these things strongly.

I was really glad you put this comment up in particular and got specific about your “messy morality over time” hypothesis, because it allowed me to really see why you think that theory holds. I mean, it’s a sweeping claim. It seems to imply that humanity is on this trajectory towards a utopian society. And I have to admit at the outset, I do not see that when I look at history – especially the last century. Goodness, what a bloodbath.

Still, the more I thought about it, the more I can see, yes, morality most of the time tracks with “specific features of that society including demographics, geography, their economy, and interconnectedness with other societies.” I think that is a fair assessment of many religions or codes of ethics throughout the world.

But I do think Christianity/Catholicism is the exception, and maybe you’ll chuckle at that (which is fine). But seriously, specifically in regards to point #7, Christianity has over and over again been subversive and bucked the trends of the surrounding society.

When Romans were leaving their babies out to die, the Christians went out and saved them. The Christians took care of the poor among them which was not normal in the surrounding culture in the time of the early church. They introduced this radical idea that in their new religion, “there is no slave or free, rich or poor, man or woman.” Popes argued with emperors over the first 1000 years refusing to bend to their whims. Slavery, which you speak of a lot here, was condemned by Popes as early as 1435 – well before the larger society was calling for an end to it. When eugenics was all the rage in the 1920’s, and eugenics laws were being put on the books in the US, the places where there was a preponderance of Catholics – like Louisiana – knocked them down.

In all of these circumstances, how did Catholicism “lag and change slower compared to the general consensus”? How did it stay with “the trends of the society at large”?

You seem to pick out the worst aspects of Catholicism and paint the entire religion that way, but I could go on giving example after example of the Catholic Church being ahead of the curve when it came to morality and calling, like a prophet in the wilderness, for the rest of society to get on board.

So I go back to the point waterandthespiritapologetics made, that God slowly brings humanity along the path toward a perfect morality, and he does it through his people. That’s my theory. And if that is really true, you would expect to see the church ahead of the curve on moral issues, which very often we have been.

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Hi, JohnnyCatholic. Thanks for your comment, and I’m sorry you had to read all of that! LOL!

First, just to correct any misunderstanding, I in no way think that “messy morality” is somehow on a trajectory of any kind, and most certainly not toward utopianism. When water fills a puddle, it is not trying to make a specific shape, it is just filling the puddle. Maybe that’s not the best analogy, but I don’t assign some sort of plan or agency or trajectory to morality. Morality has evolved. That is exactly what happened. And just like biological evolution, there is no plan, only the environment in which the organism needs to fit.

I’m not sure if I ever got to evolution earlier, but I’m not using evolution as an analogy. Morality literally evolved, and we can see that in the record. Morality has variation within the population, and the best fit morality survives longer and becomes dominant.

Now, I’m aware that Catholics generally believe in biological evolution, not sure if that is your belief or not. But I also know that while Catholics believe in evolution, they don’t quite. They do the same thing you just did with moral evolution. Yes, all natural genetic shift….. but sometimes with a guiding hand!

I know WHY you want there to be a guiding hand, but a quick review of the data shows that not to be the case. Sometimes the church is a voice for morality. Sometimes it is not. I pick the worst cases to demonstrate that, because I know you are aware of the good cases. It’s not that Catholicism or Christianity are 100% entirely bad, it’s just that it’s about as good and bad as everything else. It isn’t special.

And the worst of the worst is this idea that god just gently guides us to good morality. This means he has allowed the worst kinds of atrocities to happen when a simple correction of the record could have set things straight. As I noted to Water, god supposedly gave super specific instructions on everything from the kind of drapes that should be used to emasculating yourself by severing off a section of your genitalia. He (supposedly) specifically gave rules about murder, false witness, stealing, and coveting the property of others. Imagine how much better the history of the world would have been if he had also added in “Thou shall not own other people.”

Of course, that was not a commandment. Slavery was specifically supported as an institution. The bible got this wrong.

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Oh, no need to apologize! 🙂 I like these conversations, you are a very agreeable person, and I find religion to be endlessly fascinating.

I’m sorry for the comment about a “trajectory to utopia.” I went a little too far there. I get your point.

You are making the claim that morality literally evolved. I’m pushing back on that claim, not entirely, but in regards to Catholicism. I gave you multiple examples of the Catholic Church not fitting your theory of evolving morality. I know, I shoe-horned God in there, but whether what I’m saying implies a guiding hand or not still doesn’t negate my point, I think.

I do believe in biological evolution. I am not dismissing the idea of moral evolution out of hand, either – even in most cases. It just seems, in light of the many examples that I gave (and I could tell you so many more), your theory doesn’t fit Catholicism. I think you need to provide more counter examples in regards to the Catholic Church to support your theory.

I think all my examples also prove that your claim that Catholicism is about as good and bad as everything else is wrong. Again, society in many cases has lagged behind Catholicism morally speaking, not the other way around.

Yes, God gave super specific instructions about a lot of things in Leviticus, including circumcision while leaving other seemingly more obvious things out. But I don’t think it’s hard to figure out why he might have given some commands and not others.

If God is starting something brand new with Israel, they themselves need to have a sense of identity and separation from the surrounding culture. Think of the uniform you wear as a soldier. It’s just cloth and fabric. It is also oddly specific. But it sets you apart.

As for all the moral guidelines you think should have been put in OT Law that weren’t, of course, I agree with you that sex trafficking, rape, and slavery are bad. But I think you dismiss too quickly this idea of God gently guiding us.

From what I’m gathering in what you are writing, you seem to think that all it would take for God to lead people to ethical lives – which I think the Bible defines as real, genuine, sincere, freely chosen love and compassion for others in every way – is to simply change the wording in OT Law. “Why didn’t God just tell them to not do X? It would have been so easy.”

I think that’s too simplistic. Humanity is a rowdy bunch. When Jesus was asked why he opposed divorce while Moses allowed for it, he said, “It is because of your hard hearts that Moses allowed divorce, but this was not so from the beginning.” I think, in the same way, it is because of their hard hearts then and our hard hearts now (ethically speaking) that we aren’t as far along in the moral project as we should be or could be.

Also, I think looking at a culture 3000 years removed from us (or 2000 years removed) and making the statement that God should have done something different with them, is a little presumptuous. If God is real and he is gently guiding humanity to moral perfection, how would we know how that process should play out?

Take slavery as an example. If God is real, how should he have done things differently when it comes to slavery?

To get to the heart of this, let’s take Jesus and the Apostle as examples. You seem to imply that Jesus ought to have abolished slavery, yet he leaves it in place. Let’s run with that.

Pretend Jesus tried to abolish slavery 2000 years ago, and more than that, he was successful. All the slaves are now free.

Ok, great. Only problem is that, while they were slaves, their food was provided for them, they had shelter, and their families were taken care of. Now that they are free, their former owners are offering minimum wage which barely covers food, and they are out on the streets.

It’s not hard to imagine that the original reason many of these people in the ancient world were slaves to begin with was because they couldn’t provide for themselves. A couple bad years of crops, and they would be destitute. Selling themselves may have been their only option. Not to mention there is no prison system. What is to be done with criminals?

So instead, Jesus and Paul don’t call for the abolition of slavery. They call for the transformation of it from the inside. Paul, in Philemon, sends a runaway slave back to his “owner” telling the owner that he must accept him back as more than a slave. He is a brother now. He also tells slaveowners they need to consider how they treat their slaves knowing that God will judge them on their treatment of them.

Now, today, in our context, slavery is in no way useful to slaves. There is no reason for slavery today. But it’s not hard to imagine that the institution served a useful purpose (not just for masters, but for the slaves themselves) in ancient times.

I’m not going to go through every instance of a law in the OT that we, today, would find repugnant. I’m not saying I have an answer for all of them. But again, for me to even assume I understand Ancient Near Eastern culture so well as to be able to decide what the best laws should be to help gradually pull them into my apparently more enlightened morality is hubristic, in my opinion.

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(I apologize for no paragraphs in my previous comment! I had them when I copied and pasted)

All this talk about morality, though, reminds me of how you and TCH went back and forth discussing it. It seemed, reading through the comments, that you kept trying to explain morality in strictly biological terms (as you seem to be doing now). But what I have never been able to get around, when thinking about atheism, is the idea that the very definition of morality gets truncated within that worldview. And reading your comments kind of drove that home for me.

I don’t say this in any way to mean that you, yourself, are not a good person. I’ve already mentioned what I think of you, and it’s certainly positive. But morality, if it is described in purely naturalistic terms, seems like nothing more than an instinct. Right up there with our desire for sex and food.

But that is not at all what the typical person thinks of when she thinks of doing right and wrong. I think of words like “duty” and “ought to” when I think of morality. Under a naturalistic interpretation, I don’t see how those words mean anything. What duty do I have to an instinct? How does an instinct put a demand on me to care about my fellow man?

Certainly, we can personally decide to place duty on ourselves or put demands on ourselves to be good to other people. But ultimately, under your description of ethics, that’s a fiction, right? It’s a social construct. It can be torn down as easily as it is built because it’s made up. It’s imaginary. Again, I may have the instinct to be empathetic, for example, but not the moral obligation to be empathetic.

Instincts are things that we can take or leave with no guilt about it. I instinctively want to have candy, but instead I decide to have pasta. There’s no ethical quandary there. It seems to me that under atheism, if I want to save a life, but instead I kill it, there is still no ethical quandary (unless I personally decide to make it one).

Under Catholicism/Christianity, I have to reckon with a God that I don’t always understand. I have to believe that, ultimately, he is working everything together for good despite there being a lot of things in the world that don’t look good and a record of his doings that don’t always seem good.

But in faith, I can believe that morality is objective. It is something out there that is real that we can all strive for, argue about, and pursue together. It’s why the Catholic Church can stand on a soapbox and demand everyone be excellent to each other. “Thus saith the Lord.”

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Good morning, JonnyCatholic. So much to respond here, part of the reason I like to keep things short and on one topic. But I’ll try to get to everything….

You definitely did not say anything to refute the evolution of “messy morality.” One of the key components of evolution is variation. So if this group had different morality than another group, that is evidence that morality evolved.

Catholicism has not led people to bad morality all the time. But it has and continues today to lead people to bad morality. For example, siding with the Nazis and providing cover for the holocaust, siding with a half-dozen Catholic dictatorships in Europe this last century, oppressing people in Monarchical France, excommunication and imprisonment of scientists that were right, fighting the crusades and killing people over real estate, the Spanish inquisitions and other times the church tortured and killed people for not believing in what they believe, misogyny, preventing AIDS infested Africans from getting condoms, allowing thousands of individuals to suffer and die by specifically rejecting modern medical care at Mother Theresa’s death camps, oppressing homosexuals, giving people sainthood that tortured others, grifting millions from the flock by lying to them about the need for indulgences, Missionaries taking children from their parents and then treating them like animals to “Christianize them” resulting in neglect and death of many, burning witches, and the systematic hiding of thousands of sexual predators in the clergy as a matter of official internal policy.

In the case of condoms, misogyny, homosexuals, sexual predators, and Mother Theresa’s death camps, the church to this day is still clinging to the version of morality that causes greater pain and suffering. To this day, the Catholic church is still fighting to give less people a good life. To this day, thousands of sexual predators are still raping innocent children and being protected from prosecution (there seems to be some token movement on this one, but that’s all.)

And let’s just dwell on that for a little while, because you wanted examples of immorality in the church. Priests were literally caught having sex with young children, and the Catholic church not only didn’t react like a good person should, they actually established an entire infrastructure of reporting, payout money, messaging, and relocation to ensure that these sexual predators would not be prosecuted and were free to violate more children. That’s not just highly immoral, that is highly criminal. And it was official church policy.

So that’s why I say the Catholic church lags. Some individual churches may do all sorts of good things for their community, and in the past as well. But official church policy, and by default what the members of the church adhere to, is to protect child rapists. Official church policy was it is better to make a child a neglected orphan than let them practice a non-Christian religion. Official church policy is it’s better to let people die than wear a condom. I think you can see my point here.

You keep making excuses for your god. In one breath, you seem to imply that god established perfect morality and we need to listen to him. In the next breath, you imply that god has to play politics. Yes, I absolutely can and do call out bible god for being an immoral monster because he specifically ordered slavery and sex trafficking. You can’t “guide people to morality” when you order slavery and sex trafficking.

Then you REAAAALLLY go out on a stretch by saying that if slaves were freed 2000 years ago, somehow it might just possibly be true that they all wouldn’t be able to get jobs right away. First, that is absolutely false and any study of economics will demonstrate that. Secondly, if they have a tough time, at least they wouldn’t be SLAVES! Just the fact that you even tried to bring this up as a legitimate justification for slavery demonstrates that your moral compass has suffered at least slightly in this area. And I’m not picking on you or attacking you personally, but you just demonstrated the exact behavior that I find so horrible in religion- justification of highly immoral behavior due to the belief. But that’s another blog.

Next topic: Morality is not an instinct. Empathy is an instinct, a very necessary tool in the ability for humans to survive. We are a social species, and it is this network of friends and family that have allowed us to survive instead of going extinct. So empathy is an instinct. But morality is the application of thought and consideration to situations. Using your pasta example, hunger is an instinct, but your choice of foods is an application of thought and consideration to taste. Continuing to use your pasta example: You seem to be under the impression that since morality is just a man-made construct, that it doesn’t really hurt anything to ignore it. But it does. It still hurts empathy. If I ignore all foods and just decide not to eat, I will still be hungry, and eventually I could die if I don’t eat. In the same way, ignoring morality and just acting selfish all the time will result in negative mental health issues. Think about soldiers that have shot at people, and suffer PTSD as a result. It’s not an insignificant issue.

But ultimately, it really comes down to you not being comfortable without there being some objective standard. I get that. But there is not an objective standard. We have to be adults about it, and have conversations, and discuss morality like we are doing now.

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I disagree with a fair portion of what you said about the Catholic Church causing evil to flourish in the world, but I was trying to just use philosophy to show the necessity of God from morality so I will simply address the “morality as instinct” argument.

Yes, that is true. If I were to blow up a nursery full of babies, I would probably never get over the trauma of doing so. In that case, I would try not to hurt anyone unnecessarily. However (going back to a previous discussion) I think what you are saying sounds like morality is self-interested. We eat for our own benefit, partially to satisfy our hunger, but more importantly to stay alive. Now, obviously, we’d have trouble being able to live with ourselves, but, as I said, I don’t see why this could lead anyone to do anything heroic. Even if you have negative mental health issues or whatever because it hurts empathy to do evil, how is that better than doing evil to live? For instance, if a mad scientist is creating an antimatter bomb to annihilate an entire city and the only way to prevent it were to get into a radioactive zone to defuse it (and yes, I’m well aware this is basically impossible, but I’m using a sci fi example here), the moral thing is to get into the radioactive zone even if you die, although you yourself might otherwise be safe if you live in a different city.

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Once again, Chivalric, we are going in circles. You have shown an excellent understanding of everything so far. Put it together.

As for the Catholic church, I’m being nice. It is one of the largest and oldest criminal organizations in the world, with heinous atrocities in history and continuing today. Anyone that is Catholic unknowingly (or sometimes knowingly) is providing the financial and cultural cover to exploit people, protect dangerous pedophiles, fund wars with the goal that both sides all die, and prevent needless and horrific deaths around the world. I know YOU don’t do that, but you are supporting it without knowing it. But now you know.

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I mean this with the upmost respect, but you seem to be saying: you know what I have said already. Use your common sense.

I am aware we have discussed this before, but I feel the need to come back to it, because I didn’t feel you gave a response which I found convincing. I could gather that you believed that human life has some value to defend, but I don’t really see why other than that they are the same as one’s self as a human. You say it hurts empathy to do evil, but I can’t seem to find a way where that doesn’t end up being self-interested.

As for the Catholic Church, I do not doubt your word, but I am somewhat doubtful of your sources. But at any rate, that is not altogether relevant.

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Fair enough Chivalric. I am a generally patient person, and I don’t mean to be otherwise, especially if I’m not explaining myself well enough.

That other people are the same as me and I can understand them is the answer. It may sound like a weak answer, but it actually is very strong.

When we consider racism, people build a very strong sense of community and inclusion among their own race, and abhor other races. This sense of protecting their own is very strong, enough to literally kill others. Humans are hard-wired to protect their own, however they define that.

I used to joke about the military. If you have a bunch of military people, and a civilian says something disparaging, they unite and collectively react. But in a situation where everyone is military, the different services give each other crap and disparage each other. Within just the Army, the normal troops are treated inferior to the Airborne troops. The Rangers treat the airborne troops like lesser. And the Special Forces walk on water above everyone. I can make fun of “legs” (normal troops) because I was Airborne, but I’m in for a fight if I talk crap about Rangers or SF. But as soon as a civilian walks in, we are all veterans united together again.

Granted, we aren’t killing civilians. But the same mentality exists among people everywhere. Generally speaking, people are more protective of their own kind, and what classifies as their own kind depends on what else is out there. It also depends on how they were raised, including their willingness to be open to new ideas and cultures.

The more exposed to other cultures people are, the less likely they are to disparage those cultures or the people. We know for a fact that people are willing to defend their particular sense of their own kind to the death. So the broader sense of humanity you have, the more people are under the umbrella in your sense of protection.

Some people extend this umbrella out, as previously noted, to include other living things.

But to a certain extent, I don’t think it is a stretch to say that many moral activities are ultimately self-serving. I can’t say that with authority, and I’ve never seen a study on the subject. But it does make sense. Being loving and kind to your significant other is never unconditional, no matter how willing we are to bend and roll with the punches (literally or figuratively). In the end, we expect the love and care and kindness and safety to be reciprocated. (Oh, and nothing makes me laugh harder than people saying that Jesus loves me unconditionally, but only if you fulfill a bunch of conditions….)

Charitable giving by organizations is just a tax-writeoff, but even small, anonymous giving could ultimately be seen as a way for the individual to feel happy. You feel good when you do good things. If you didn’t feel good about doing good things, would you do good things? Tough question.

I already spoke some of military heroism, but I’ll help you by making this even more difficult on myself- fire fighting (or first responder) heroism, and parental heroism. In one case, they are saving people when they otherwise have no danger to themselves, and in the latter seems to be about the purest form of self-sacrifice for others I can think of.

But even then, we are raised in an environment where heroes are a known and celebrated phenomenon. First responders routinely train to enter these dangerous situations, and they discuss the risks to themselves and potential outcomes. So I don’t think it is a stretch to think that the fire fighter rushes in, probably believing they will be able to make it out alive, and high on adrenaline and the satisfaction they get from saving people. Saving people HAS to be a gigantic boost to the self-image, and adrenaline is a powerful drug. It only takes a moderate expectancy for survival to make that choice seem right.

And the toughest one I can think of, parents sacrificing themselves for their children. But there are self-serving motivations here as well. The first is the overwhelming grief and the overwhelming condemnation by the community if the parent doesn’t sacrifice themselves to save their children. They would be emotionally tortured for the rest of their lives both for the loss and the fact that they could have saved them. The community would judge them for not stepping in, again, as this is a known phenomenon. We judge people’s loyalty literally using the phrase “would you take a bullet for them”, after all. Parents are expected to answer that with an affirmative.

But additionally, if someone must die, people project themselves on to their children. Their children are extensions of themselves. So in dying to save your children, you are factually saving your progeny, which is all any of us will ultimately have left. We’ve all heard the movie line “let them take me, I’ve already lived a long life” or words to that effect. You can die happy knowing you saved your progeny.

To sum up, I chose the hardest examples to refute that seem to be pure sacrifice, in order to discuss them honestly. I covered how it is a fact that many supposed sacrifices have a component of self-serving interest, even if that self-interest is merely return of love and caring. And I believe, although with less confidence, that ultimately all self-sacrifice can come down to a self-serving purpose, as odd as that may seem on the surface.

Oh, and one last point, I find sacrifice for the sake of religion (martyrdom) the ultimate self-serving act. The refusal to budge on a religious conviction publicly, and face torture and/or death for it, only serves to secure that person’s place in heaven, or so they believe. And this fact can be demonstrated simply by noting that people that don’t believe in heaven don’t martyr themselves. If it keeps me alive, I’ll tell you I believe in any number of gods, in creation, in the flat earth, or that witches fly around my house. Atheists don’t have anything to die for, and absolutely everything to live for. Religious people have every reason for eternity to die a martyr.

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I didn’t have access to WiFi for a day or so and now there are about twenty comments more than there were… I will have a lot of trouble catching up again. On the bright side, I’m still receiving likes on this post, probably because I’ve never had one with more comments. So on we go!

Yeah, I can imagine about military forces. I met a veteran who said all marines were “stupid”, but I imagine he’d be willing to gang up with a Marine against someone else.

Thank you for explaining your position and please correct me if I misunderstand you position. So yes, there is a moral boost which I think we all usually feel when helping another, but I don’t think that reason alone is good enough for the morality we see in the world and expect from others. As Jonnycatholic said, helping others is a duty, as in, we find fault in others for not doing so. And anyway, we may feel a boost from any number of things, for instance, from watching a really good movie, but I wouldn’t blame someone for not doing so as I’d blame a parent for not making certain sacrifices for their child.

But what if you know you’re going to die? As you said, in the military, you’d be willing to die for a comrade and I think we ought to be willing to give our lives even for a stranger. Certainly from an atheist worldview more than a Christian one, there is no reward after death for living a good life. Should you still do something heroic? How can you receive a moral boost if you are dead?

As for martyrdom, I see what you mean, but, although God will give a reward, I think that is actually for the sake of love of Him. For one thing, even in heaven, we will not be focussed on ourselves at all (from a Christian worldview) but on God. It’s in hell where everyone’s thinking of himself. Furthermore, I think that still doesn’t give a reason for atheists to give their lives for anything.

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Well, there certainly is at least one less reason for an atheist to give his life. Atheists don’t blow themselves up for a reward of 72 virgins in the afterlife, or to bounce on clouds happy for eternity.

But every other reason is still there. To protect those you love is simply the easiest example.

The problem with atheists is you have to convince them with a real reason. Leaders throughout history have found this a significant challenge. But by appealing to a religious purpose, the state can get people to kill themselves for the purpose that is beneficial to the ruling class. The ruling class gets rich, and the poor think they get a reward when dead.

This is most certainly what Constantine was doing in promoting Christianity/Catholicism. They were willing to die foe their god, he let them and reaped the rewards. But in his own writing didn’t seem to give a hill of beans personally for it. For that matter, his supposed conversion, if I remember, was only “remembered” decades after the fact.

Sorry, off on a tangent. Atheist may sacrifice themselves for all the reasons anyone else would except one. And because of that, leaders don’t get to get away with lying to us.

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72 virgins…is that a Muslim thing? If you read Aquinas’ Summa Contra Gentiles, you’ll find it’s a bit more satisfying than sitting on clouds.

I confess I haven’t investigated much on Constantine, so I am not one to speak there. I will say, however, first of all that I wouldn’t call it leaders “lying”. Religious people already believe in their religions. Whether it is in their leaders’ interest to have his citizens martyred or not is none of my concern at the moment. Let it suffice to say, however, that according to Catholic doctrine, there is no reason why Joe Biden should know the will of God better than I should.

I don’t think martyrdom is selfish, since you’re giving all you have to God. He will reward you in the next life, but such happiness isn’t even centered around self, since it consists of enjoying and glorifying the Divine substance forever.

However, that was not the original topic. You still haven’t addressed my responses to your other reasons (other than going to heaven) for making a sacrifice.

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Sure I did. Once again, you are looking for some silver bullet, and there are no silver bullets in life. There is no silver bullet why you should marry one person over another, why you should exercise more or less, why you should or shouldn’t swear, or should or shouldn’t give money to charity. These are all things that are gray areas all the time everywhere.

We’ve already discussed the military one, where you are all already dead so one person will feel compelled to action to save his or her fellows in arms.

We discussed accepting that you are older and will die before your children in a natural world, so giving your life in time of crisis not only survives your progeny but is seen as the right thing to do.

We’ve discussed the concept of “taking a bullet for someone”, and how people are willing to die to protect their own family or small circle because they have a strong emotional attachment to the group and want the group to survive.

And of course, there are strongly held beliefs. Yes, the 72 virgins is a Muslim reference, and there are clearly Muslims in the world today that are more than willing to give their lives for something you believe is false. And they think Christianity is false. So at least someone on one side or the other is willing to give up their life for a lie. I just say it’s both sides.

And quick notes to address your earlier points: I don’t care what anyone says heaven is like, they are making it up. They have no way of knowing, so they are making it up. Aquinas was not only a monster, he was a liar.

Yes, many leaders believe in their faith. But it is clear many just found it useful. Trump is as Christian as my left tennis shoe, but they voted for him, so he pandered to them. He could give a d— about them, and we know it because of everything he ever said or did before he decided to run, and a lot of what he said and did after. He panders, they vote.

Martyrdom is selfish. You are dying for your own ticket to fluffy clouds and ignoring what you leave behind.

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We have, but I do believe I responded to all your arguments.

It may make logical sense to die for your children from a utilitarian perspective since you will probably die first anyway. But if morality is self-interested, why do we care what happens after we cease to exist? The survival of those who live a hundred years in the future will not effect us.

Again, strong emotional attachment does not imply duty. I understand why you might want to take a bullet for someone. I don’t see why you ought to take a bullet for someone. If you’re dead, you won’t receive a moral boost.

Yes. Read my argument above for why the “One less god” argument, in my view, doesn’t work.

Let’s not psychoanalyze theologians from the thirteenth century, shall we? I don’t know what you mean by a “monster”, but if you think all theologians are liars, I don’t see the point in reasoning with them.

Trump…let’s not get into politics, shall we?

I see martyrdom as giving one’s life for something greater. Assuming God actually is real and He became Man in the Person of Jesus Christ, I don’t see it as selfish to rather die than to deny the existence of the one who both keeps at every moment mankind in continual existence (thus rendering us in absolute dependence on Him) and bought by His very blood our salvation.

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Eh, I feel like I’m getting to the point where I’m just shooting out replies to you without spending a whole lot of time explaining myself thoroughly. And there is no way I can possibly remember everything we’ve covered or said, and there’s starting to be too much to review.

Additionally, my examples that I thought were simple to understand are just causing more confusion, because of where we are coming from.

It’s been a great conversation, but I can’t keep up with it in perpetuity. The very, very, very bottom line is you are still hoping there is some absolute bedrock that all of this morality is stacked upon. And that just is not the case. Some things we can be more confident with our “ought to”, others not so much, and everything is in between. It’s not a hard science, it’s people. And people is a much more interesting topic anyway.

Best of luck, TSA

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I understand your desire to keep things short. It’s just rare that I get to have a sit-down, decent conversation with an agreeable atheist. I want to understand you, and I have sincere questions. I also need to hear from you the difficult things, too, right? Still, I don’t want to drag this on if you are getting bored or frustrated. I do find this conversation interesting, though.

I really sat and thought about all the negatives you mentioned about the Catholic church, specifically in the paragraph starting with “Catholicism has not led….” I had these thoughts:

I do think there needs to be a distinction between what Catholicism teaches and individual Catholics acting badly. The sex abuse scandal is THE example of that. Catholics were as horrified as you are at what happened. But most of us knew that did not reflect authentic Catholicism. I promise you that nowhere in the Catechism does it say priests should molest children.

Other things you mentioned are more nuanced, though. The Crusades were a response to Mulsim aggression which was a real threat but then it got out of hand. If you are referring to the Galileo incident in saying scientists were imprisoned, I could write a whole post on how that story is completely overblown in pop culture.

The Catholic Church strives to fulfill its mission, which is to make disciples of the nations. You may not like that, but it’s important to us. In trying to do that, we make many mistakes, though. But we also do much good, as well. People like Mother Teresa (or Junipero Serra, or any other saint, take your pick) will have good intentions and will do a lot of good. Yet in doing that, they will also make sometimes even gross mistakes that history looks unfavorably on.

Mother Teresa’s mission, for example, was to give dignity to the dying. She started her work by taking in people who were turned away from hospitals that refused to help them, just leaving them in the streets. She didn’t just give to the poor. She lived with them and loved them. That doesn’t mean we dismiss the practices she allowed in her ministry, of not cleaning tools appropriately, or making many mistakes along the way.. But I do think we owe people that nuanced understanding – no matter who they are.

Other things you mentioned are definitely matters of doctrine and dogma – though I would not put “sexual predators” and “misogyny” in that category. But yeah, we have a value system that does not align perfectly with the world at large. If we did, we could never help society catch up to us. 😉

As you said, I might be stepping out on a limb with the issue of slavery, but I don’t think you should brush my comments off so easily. We have a real-world example of what I said actually happening here in the United States. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/16/slavery-starvation-civil-war) When slaves were emancipated in the US, many had a wretched time of it. Hundreds of thousands of them died of diseases, travelling to different places trying to find jobs. Most of them in the south lived in desperate poverty after the Civil War. The plantation system collapsing had catastrophic effects on the black community. The Union did not help them nearly as much as they should have. Those are just facts.

But they were free! Yes! I agree it was worth it, obviously! But really, can you not at least imagine that that kind of catastrophic change in the context of the ancient world might do more harm than good? It took a war to free the slaves 150 years ago which plunged the black community into disease and starvation, and this in a liberal democracy with a Constitution that literally says “all men are created equal.” How hard do you think it would have been 2000 years ago to do the same thing?

This is not about politics. It’s about people. Is it really that hard to imagine that Jesus and Paul taking a more peaceful route instead of starting a bloody revolution might have been the better path to take then, even if that would not be the right choice now?

Again, I apply the same principle to OT Law. It was a different context then. You don’t teach Calculus to kids in 3rd grade. You don’t teach the Sermon on the Mount to Bronze Age warring, factious, tribes. They were not ready for, “Blessed are you when you are persecuted” and “When someone strikes you, offer them the other cheek.”

In regards to your second to last paragraph, for my own sake, this is a topic I’d like to delve into a lot more with you, if you have the patience. (If you don’t, I totally understand! You have been patient enough) In college, when I was flirting with atheism, morality was really the issue that turned me off to it.

What you are describing, in my opinion, when you say empathy is the instinct and “morality is the application of thought and consideration of situations,” how ignoring empathy hurts us, all of that, you are describing the “what” of ethics. But you cannot get an “ought” from a “what”. That’s my point in all this.

Empathy is not our only instinct. It butts up against our instinct for promiscuity, our instinct to say “screw all of you! I’m doing what I want”, etc. There are countless situations when more banal instincts override people’s empathy, and they walk away feeling just fine about it.

Don’t think of the extreme examples. Just think of the obvious everyday ones. A man leaves and devastates his wife and family because he finds a younger, attractive woman who suits his fancy. A CEO fleeces the company and walks away with millions. A priest tries to get away with molesting children and the bishop turns a blind eye.

What matters to me is not the evolutionary mechanics of how or why a person would feel certain things in these situations. I don’t care about the mechanics. I want to know how you, personally, as an atheist, are going to hold these people accountable to an ethical standard you know is a social construct and entirely subjective.

It seems to me, under how you are describing this, that you can try and reason with the man leaving his wife: “This will hurt you in the long run.” You can plead with him that this will hurt his family. You can appeal to his empathetic instinct. But what you cannot say is, “You ought to stay with her. It is your duty.” And to me, that makes all the difference in the world.

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Good morning, JonnyCatholic! I don’t mind, and although I probably should be doing something else, I do have a little time.

I just commented to Water about the difference between an organization acting criminally or corrupt or immorally, and the human members of that organization acting humanely. If you have a minute, please go read that because I think we are in agreement on that, and will probably help shorten how much I have to re-type it!

So, I’ll dive into the “you ought to do such-and-such” question. For me, this is one of the reasons why secular morality is so superior to religious morality.

First, religious morality always appeals to another entity for motivation. A woman may wish to leave her husband because he doesn’t support her emotionally, in her career desires, or her dreams of the future. She is miserable, because all she does is cater to what her husband wants without adequate return. Rather than have children with this man, and continue to be miserable, and fight in front of the kids and make them miserable, I say leave! She is motivated to be a happy, productive member of her community for her self, and not continue a cycle of misery with potential children. Religious motivations are dictated to you, and therefore may run counter to being a good person yourself.

Secondly, there seem to be communication errors. There are 30,000 denominations of Christianity alone, all of which come down in different places on the many questions of morality. Even within a single congregation, I can’t dictate a coherent and absolute answer to the “ought to” question of divorce. Yeah, Catholic doctrine is pretty against it, but there are loopholes there as well. Does this situation fit a loophole? Does this situation even have a precedent in the doctrine? No. The communication loop is broken.

Third, lack of clarity. I somewhat touched on this above, but want to dive into it specifically. Sweeping rules or even guidelines can never give us enough fidelity to answer moral questions. On one hand, the seemingly easy ones like “do not kill” feel pretty universal, but they are not. First, it’s an assumption that he means humans only, but does he also mean animals and plants? Honestly. I ask that because some religions forbid killing plants or animals or bugs. Food is harvested only from sources that don’t kill the organism. They clearly are doing a better job of not killing. But also, right after telling them not to kill, god orders them to go kill other people. So maybe he only means “don’t kill within the tribe”, which is a whole different thing. And on the other side of the coin are issues that aren’t as obvious. Is downloading free music from the internet stealing? Is it immoral to forgo child seats? Is it immoral to tell your children they are bad or broken and need to repent? No clarity on any of these.

Fourth, moral agency. This is the real kicker for me in terms of secular morality being superior. Acting like a sheep and doing what you are told is not moral, it is herd conformity. Thinking about moral issues and doing your best as an individual or organization or society is moral. It is moral reasoning. It is application of the concepts to the problems. If you aren’t acting like a moral agent, you are just following someone else that may or not be moral.

Finally, the obviously immoral stuff. The bible specifically condones and often orders genocide, slavery, sex trafficking, buying and selling women, etc. You said something to the effect of “you don’t teach calculus to 3rd graders”, and that’s true. But calculus builds on foundations of the basic math. You don’t teach children that numbers are squiggly lines and the more squiggly the better, and THEN teach them calculus. One has to feed the other. Genocide, slavery, sex trafficking, and misogyny do not feed into “do unto others.” Not even remotely. It is literally to do the opposite of the intended goal, if good morality is the goal. Under no circumstance can you teach people and order people to treat others as lesser than themselves for 3000 years, and then just expect that they will start treating people like equals. And yes, I absolutely take the context and civilization of the day into account. I also take into account that this is supposed to be a god. If your god is even less useful in changing hearts and minds than a couple of people with a dream, then he isn’t much of a god. Humans can do far better any day of the week.

So having gone through all of that, how to I say “ought” to someone? Well, I definitely don’t tell them because it’s a rule. You literally just defended slavery and sex trafficking by suggesting that people don’t take kindly to rules they wouldn’t otherwise accept. So that’s a non-starter.

But what you can do, and effective counselors do all the time, is help them relate their situation, and realize the reality of their situation. How bad is it really? What are the actual, real negative consequences, both emotionally and legally? Ask them if they make a particular decision, will they be able to live with that decision in the long run? What do they hope to accomplish, and will their actions actually accomplish it?

Once we have done the thinking, the right answer is usually easier to see. Divorce? It may or may not be the right answer, depending on the circumstance. Murder? That answer gets super clear real quick. Car seats for children? All analysis says you ought to put children in car seats.

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“And the worst of the worst is this idea that god just gently guides us to good morality.” God gives us free will, and at all times we are free to turn away from him. He shows the way, we don’t have to follow, so there is no saying that morality will “improve” over time.
The problem is not “owning” other people, the problem is having evil intentions in your heart.

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Water, bible god literally showed the way to own slaves. He told us how to own slaves, how to mark your slaves, who to own, rules for transferring slaves, and how hard you can beat them. It’s not that we are “turning away”, it is that bible god’s morality is horrible.

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Hi, Water. The heart pumps blood. That’s all it does. It is not involved in morality or moral choices or ethics.

I know what you MEAN when you say “heart”, but I’m eliminating the fuzziness here. Morality exists in our minds, where we process information and make decisions. We process information with the backdrop of our lifelong experiences and education. This is why it is easier to teach children pretty much anything, because they are sponges soaking up information for the first time. They don’t have a litany of experience by which to measure claims, so they readily accept what is presented to them. There is both good and bad to this, but I digress.

If the sum of your experience and education includes the idea that there is an all powerful, all loving god that we should worship, and that god also ordered slavery and sex trafficking, then your morality will suffer. It’s like being told to respect women by someone that is a wife beater.

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We might differ about the heart, and this is perhaps a major difference between us. I hear what you say about the mind and the intellect, but our feelings are a more complex matter, and unlike the mind, where we are generally in control, this is often not the case with our feelings, what I would term the “heart”.
My morality does not suffer from an old testament injunction about slavery, etc. It has no binding force on what I think. Jesus taught us to love one another as he loved us. That is a tough call. This speaks of sacrificial love, giving of oneself for the sake of another, including our enemies. There is no higher calling.
Now Christians may fail miserably at this, but this is what they are called to do.

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Sure, Water. Modern, post Victorian age Christianity says that. Post scientific revolution Christianity says that.

And Catholicism, more than any denomination I’m aware of, ignores the bible almost entirely anyway. So yeah, I get that the OT, nor most of the NT, really inform your morality.

Corporate managers are called to not abuse their human capital, sacrifice for the good of the company, and be professional in dealing with other companies, including competitors. Sometimes they fail at that. But the difference is we don’t pretend corporate managers get their ethics from magic tricks. Corporate managers get onboarded, receive instruction on ethics and what is expected, and are held to that standard.

We do ethics every day in secular activities all over the country in everyday life. But for some reason, I should believe that doing the exact same thing within a specific location or setting and suddenly, magic? That is a stretch.

And I’ll push back one more time on the heart thing. Using such terminology obscures what is actually going on. Which basically means you are intentionally obscuring your understanding of morality, feelings, and how the brain functions. Don’t do that, Water! Find out what is really going on, not what sounds good in a poem.

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I’ll deal with your last comment first. It’s not either/or spartan, but both. Use your brains AND your emotions.
Catholicism breathes the bible, so I’m surprised by your comment.
You talk as if morality falls from the sky. This is not so. Christians were the ones to develop a concept of personhood, of equality between men and women, of individual rights, right from the beginning. And that is why it spread like wildfire in the Roman empire despite all the persecution. In Roman culture the man owned his wife and children, and had absolute power over them. When a child was born the father had the right in law to have it killed for any reason, often if it was a girl, or handicapped, or for any other reason. This was not found among Christians. When there was a plague or disease the Christians would look after each other and after the pagans too, whereas the Roman priests and nobility were the first to run. People converted to Christianity in droves, and within a couple of hundred years Christians were a majority in the empire.

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Water, you have been most agreeable and I thank you for that. Because of that, I stopped short of replying like I originally began, which was to laugh out loud and make fun of your historic assertions. I’m not telling you that to be antagonistic, I only mention it because the Catholic church has been a force for pain and suffering nearly it’s entire existence. But I wanted you to understand that, and being snarky wasn’t going to get us there. So I took a step back and tried to see it from your perspective so I can respond thoughtfully.

Here is what I’ve noticed. You are conflating people within the church, to the church itself. What I mean by that is an organization can be corrupt, criminal, or even outright immoral while still having members of the organization that are good people. Indeed, I generally think people are good. But we can pick any “evil” organization in history and find examples of heart-felt kindness, generosity, and even love. We can even find members of that organization that have a moral compass more inclined to helping people than the society in which they live. The most “evil” organization that comes to mind could be the Nazis, as an example. Oskar Schindler was a Nazi, yet he saved over 1,200 Jews. Wernher Von Braun was a Nazi, but only aspired to explore the universe for all mankind. Karl Plagge, Helmut Kleinicke, Hans Calmeyer all saved Jews, and all during a time when the general German population was more than willing to treat them like animals. But no matter how these individuals cared for humanity, the Nazi organization was itself a horrible institution.

I have no doubt that you and Chivalric and JonnyCatholic are good people, and I have no doubt that the Catholic church had good people throughout the ages. But the Catholic church itself is a corrupt, criminal organization. The Catholic church is directly responsible for the rape of tens of thousands of children. The Catholic church is directly responsible for the deaths of millions (and counting) of Africans. The Catholic church burned witches. The Catholic church suppressed, and continues to suppress science. The Catholic church is directly responsible for engaging in or funding ideological wars, including to this very day. The Catholic church authorized gruesome torture and death for differences of belief. The Catholic church to this very day denies medical treatment to the very sick in Mother Theresa’s death camps. The Catholic church lied to and fleeced money from parishioners for hundreds of years. Et Cetera.

So let’s bring this all back to morality, which is the topic at hand. Just like Oskar Schindler did not get his morality from the Nazi party, Catholics don’t get their morality from the Catholic church. Now, sitting in the pews each week, and then kneeling in the pews, then sitting again, standing, kneeling, sitting.. (sorry, Catholic joke there). Anyway, sitting in the pews each week, you may FEEL like you get your morality from the church. But you aren’t. You are getting it from being in a collective of humans that all desire to lead good lives, and to that end have these moral discussions. The priest seems to be the one issuing moral guidance, but the reality is the priest is just a reflection of the morality of the community. If the priest goes outside the moral bell curve of the congregation, he pays a price in either loosing parishioners or being asked to move on. This is the opposite of getting morality from the church. And of course, any organization that truly provided morality wouldn’t have such a high degree of corruption. Priests are out there having group gay orgies, and the church remains mum about it. Granted, I don’t think there is anything wrong with gay or group sex as long as everyone is a consenting adult, but the church definitely is highly against it. But then again, the church has a very refined “do as I say, not as I do” attitude, and that shows in almost everything the church does. Anyway, enough on that for now, we can explore it further if you want. People, good. Church, corrupt and criminal. You definitely do not get your morality from the church.

Other notes:

Using brains and emotions. This is like saying using your lungs AND oxygen exchange. That is silly. Lungs are the organ, oxygen exchange is what they do. Brains process, and emotions are one of the processes. Understanding this is not just semantics, it is literally something used to help people with PTSD cope.

Morality falling from the sky. Again, I want to be snarky here, but I’ll keep it nice. You and Chivalric are arguing it comes from the sky by magic. I am literally arguing it does not come from the sky. It literally is a developed understanding that comes from the human species interacting with each other.

Christianity spread because the Roman leaders found it useful. It spread like “wildfire” because you would be killed if you weren’t Christian. Killing people is how Christianity spread throughout all of Europe and maintained power throughout the majority of two millennia. Killing people that disagree with you is effective. But it certainly doesn’t mean your ideas are better.

Again, the heart pumps blood. It processes no emotions or thoughts at all. It is poetic to use the term “heart”, but I’m not doing poetry. I’m talking about reality. Your mind does emotions.

And last for now, of course you don’t suffer old testament injunctions. Or new testament injunctions either. You’re Catholic. Catholics know less about the bible than most Christian denominations. So while you pretend to care about the bible, you really are just doing exactly what I have been explaining now for hundreds of comments, which is gain your moral understanding through shared experiences in your community.

Cheers, TSA

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Just a short question and comment on this conversation.

Q: How would you say the church spread so much in the first 300 years before Constantine?

Comment: I have a Bachelors in Bible (from a Protestant school), and I became Catholic. On our thread, I’d be happy to chat about why I very must disagree with you that Catholics are not Biblical.

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Hi, JonnyCatholic. Short answer, like any other religion. Mormonism, Scientology, and Cargo Cults all grew exponentially after their founding. Nothing unusual about that at all.

But one thing you are missing in this conversation is that you seem to assume that a single religion was born and grew, whereas what actually happened was a loosely based savior cult, among at least dozens of savior cults, managed to resonate with enough people to propagate itself. Just within the “Jesus cult” banner, there were dozens of sects all with extremely varying beliefs. One of the most known examples are the gnostics, which did not believe in a literal Jesus at all.

Also missing is that the supposed gospels were written at least 40-90 years after the supposed events happened, which back then meant most people that would have been alive to witness anything would already be dead.

So the real timeline is Jesus did lots and lots of amazing things, then everyone forgot. Then another generation later, somebody remembered and wrote it down, but somehow there was so much disagreement right away that you would be hard pressed to call them of the same religion. Then a couple hundred years later, a Roman emperor locked them all in a room together and told them they had to agree on something, and that would be the official version.

Catholics most definitely do not follow the bible, but then again, it’s nearly impossible to follow anyway. If you have a BA in Bible, you will know of the complete differences in theology between the supposed words of Jesus and the writings of Paul. Some of these are minor, others are more major, but the point is by saying you “follow the bible”, you have to reject one or the other. Catholicism is pretty Pauline, if I remember, which seems pretty contrary to a religion that supposedly follows Jesus.

Is there another place we can have this discussion without tying up Chivaric’s fine comment thread?

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I’ve enjoyed this conversation, but I think, like Water, I’m going to stop it here. These conversations usually take up all my mental space, and I don’t have time for that right now.

Thank you for chatting with me. I appreciate, especially, you staying on topic and us being able to talk deeply about particular things. It’s a helpful way for me to process things.

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Thanks for a positive approach spartan, on this basis we can have a frank exchange without talking at cross purposes.
Your caricature of the Catholic church is derived from anti-Catholic propaganda. A demonisation of the church by its enemies.
Sexual abuse by priests in the Catholic church is no more prevalent than in the general community, or by other Christian churches for that matter. The church just gets more publicity. Moving predator priests around in the sixties, seventies and eighties is no different than moving predatory teachers around by government schools in those years, but there is no appetite in the media for pursuing these issues. Sending those priests for counselling by church authorities no different than sending those teachers for counselling, etc, etc.
“The Catholic church is directly responsible for the deaths of millions (and counting) of Africans.” I suppose you are talking about contraception. Condoms fail. That is the long and the short of it. They do not prevent Aids, especially in Africa where sex often is often very vigorous. Unless you deal with the root of the problem, promiscuity, it will not go away. And it’s not just Aids we are talking about, but the breakdown of society.
A few things for you to ponder.
A. In March 19, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Edward C. Green, director of the AIDS Prevention Research Project at the Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies, has said that “”There is,”a consistent association shown by our best studies, including the U.S.-funded ‘Demographic Health Surveys,’ between greater availability and use of condoms and higher (not lower) HIV-infection rates. This may be due in part to a phenomenon known as risk compensation, meaning that when one uses a risk-reduction ‘technology’ such as condoms, one often loses the benefit (reduction in risk) by ‘compensating’ or taking greater chances than one would take without the risk-reduction technology.”
The Harvard AIDS Project’s webpage on Green lists his book “Rethinking AIDS Prevention: Learning from Successes in Developing Countries”. It is stated that Green reveals, “The largely medical solutions funded by major donors have had little impact in Africa, the continent hardest hit by AIDS. Instead, relatively simple, low-cost behavioral change programs–stressing increased monogamy and delayed sexual activity for young people–have made the greatest headway in fighting or preventing the disease’s spread.”
See Dr. Green’s impressive credentials and list of publications at
http://www.harvardaidsprp.org/faculty-staff/edward-c-green-bio.html
Aids and STI’s Spread.
The lining of the rectum is one cell thick, and has an abundance of M cells, whose function it is to bring foreign material to the body’s defence system. So they bring microbes, virus, bacteria, etc to immune system cells.
HIV cells attack immune cells to spread, so they have an express lane to invasion.
And that is not for HIV alone, the same applies to STI’s and other diseases as the lining of the rectum is designed to absorb nutrients, etc into the human body.
That is why anal sex is so dangerous, and homosexual/bisexual men, who account for 4% of men in the U.S.A are responsible currently for 78% of HIV infections.
The lining of the vagina is 14 to 20 cells thick, and considerably tougher, and does not have carriers which facilitate the transmission of disease.
It is not compulsory for an Aids infected person to report their infection to past partners, etc, and in fact one person in six with HIV does not know they have got it.
Promiscuity
The brain, especially in adolescent years, is growing.
We now know that when we lust, we use a part of the brain, and when we love, another.
We also know that by exercising a part of the brain, especially as it is developing, but not only at that stage, it grows. The part that we do not use does not develop.
By the time they leave school, 75% of American kids have had sex, many with several partners by the time they leave college.
Pornography is rife. Those who have been promiscuous later find it difficult to develop loving relationships, often leading to marriage breakdown, single families, emotionally battered kids. (“Unprotected” by Miriam Grossman.
“Hooked” by Freda McKissic Bush and Joe S. McIlhaney Jr.)
“The Catholic church burned witches.” You will find that it was the state who burned witches, although at times as a result of an ecclesiastical court ruling. The vast majority was by unruly mobs and the state.
“The Catholic church suppressed, and continues to suppress science.” This must be the biggest joke I ever heard, and I’ve heard it many times. Read Rodney Stark’s “Bearing False Witness: Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History” (He’s not a Catholic.)
“The Catholic church is directly responsible for engaging in or funding ideological wars,”. I don’t know what you are talking about.
“The Catholic church authorized gruesome torture and death for differences of belief.” Torture was common in those times, and was done mostly by civil authorities, even if as I said earlier after an ecclesiastical court ruling. Look at the Tower of London and see what civil authorities were up to.
“The Catholic church to this very day denies medical treatment to the very sick in Mother Theresa’s death camps.” I can’t really believe you wrote this. Who goes and picks up the dying in Calcutta? The US government? The Atheist convention? The Indian government? WHO? No one! So you are saying that what is being done is not perfect, or not up to your standard, but NO ONE is doing anything about these people. Can you not see the hypocrisy in all these criticisms?
“The Catholic church lied to and fleeced money from parishioners for hundreds of years.” This is a joke. Have you heard of corruption in secular society? Or do you need examples? What do you mean by “lied to”?
Unfortunately, “the priest is just a reflection of the morality of the community” is not uncommon.
Unfortunately “Priests are out there having group gay orgies” also happens. But where possible these things are addresses internally, unless the bishop is involved. Not easy problems to resolve.
“You definitely do not get your morality from the church.” You don’t know what you are talking about.
I get what you say about emotions. It is neither here or there, just semantics.
About morality and the sky. I don’t think that you have a concept of who God really is. To you God is something out there (if he were to exist) who people attribute creation to and generally interfering in human affairs and imposing rules and laws.
That is not the Christian God. The Christian God is a personal God that you interact with daily, he is part of the fabric of our lives, and he loves each and everyone of us.
“Christianity spread because the Roman leaders found it useful. It spread like “wildfire” because you would be killed if you weren’t Christian.” Propaganda. Learn a bit of history.
“Killing people is how Christianity spread throughout all of Europe and maintained power throughout the majority of two millennia.” Propaganda. Ditto.
“Catholics know less about the bible than most Christian denominations.” True but changing, about half of Catholics read the bible compared to about 55% of mainline protestants and 80% of Evangelicals. On the other hand, the Catholic mass is replete with scripture.
“while you pretend to care about the bible”. You certainly cannot say that about me.

“gain your moral understanding through shared experiences in your community.” Absolutely false.
By the way, if you want to read a serious rebuttal of atheism, read “The last Superstition” by Edward Feser. No joke, you deserve to read a complete deconstruction of atheism. And let me know how you find it.

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1) pedophelia is not more prevalent in the Catholic church, I agree. Bit the Catholic church had a policy of moving and not punishing offenders that let them offend again and again and again. This is criminal conduct, period.

2) contraception works. Even of it only works 99% of the time, that is still 99 times more not-dead people. Do you know what is the least effective form of birth control? Abstinence only. Statistically a fact.

3) sex is more vigorous in Africa? Dude, you are treading a fine line between ignorance and racism.

4) I’ll look up Green later. But it basically sounds like ot amounts to the idea that since something is not perfect, you think it should be banned. This makes no sense.

5) the Catholic church accepts more science than many fundamental Christian groups, but still denies a whole lot of science.

6) ideological wars. Everything from the crusades to the current israeli-palestinian conflict.

7) “blah blah blah, bad stuff happened that the church is directly responsible for, and though it is morally reprehensible, I’ll look the other way because it happened some time ago.” I don’t buy it. You cant follow the moral decrepid acts of the age and pretend you have a moral superiority. The Churches morality is not only a mere product of society, it lags behind society.

8) Mother Theresa’s death camps. Yeah, that is what they are. They are specifically designed to enjoy the suffering, per the words of Mother Theresa herself. The church is the richest criminal organization in the world, but Mother Theresa wanted none of that “sciency medical stuff.” She wanted them to suffer for Jesus. She is criminally negligent of helping sick people. ANY medical assistance would have been better than a single day in her death camp.

9)Indulgences, which in some ways continue to this very day. And since we were talking about the bible earlier, indulgences, the Trinity, Christmas, confession, Mary worship, and purgatory are all extra-biblical lies the church used to make money.

10) no, priestly gay orgies are treated like pedophelia in the church. Ignored.

11) god interacts with you daily. No, he doesn’t. You imagine it, and I can prove it.

12) yeah, propaganda. Christianity has good propaganda, the best of which also included killing people that didn’t believe. Today’s propaganda includes this odd notion that Catholics have any claim to original Christianity. They don’t. They were just another crazy sect of rising-and-dying gods until the Roman emperor decided it was useful to him.

13) I strongly encourage people to read the bible. It makes more atheists.

14) “Deconstructing atheism” is probably the dumbest thing ive ever heard of. There is only a single thing to “deconstruct”, and that would be done by demonstrating the existence of a deity. Naturally, this has never been done.

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Well, yeah. I hate the church. I also hate the KKK, Nazis, the Mob, and probably a bunch of other criminal organizations.

But I don’t hate the church and therefore judge the church, quite the opposite. My experience as a Catholic was entirely pleasant. I hate the church because I realized that they are a largesse, criminal organization. And this all came about before I called myself an atheist, by the way. I was still on the Jesus train, but came to recognize that the Catholic church intentionally swindles money and protects pedophiles, as well as all the non-biblical stuff. But I still believed in God at the time. I hate the Catholic church for cause.

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No, the Catholic church actually and really and completely had procedures for moving pedophile priests to avoid punishment. That really happened, and is quite possibly still happening as we type.

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That is true happened in many places the world over and cannot be denied, it is a shame for all of us Catholics.
But people react to what they know. Did you know that in the 1930’s and 40’s and 50’s (and probably still), there was a major infiltration of the clergy by communist groups in the US and elsewhere? In 1953, Isabella Dodd testified before a hearing of the U.S. Senate Internal Security Subcommittee (SISS) about widespread Communist Party infiltration of the Catholic church through seminaries. She said that she personally knew of over 1,000 priests who had been infiltrated into the church to wreck it from within. I am sure that they did a lot of damage. And that damage is still probably ongoing.
Things are not as simple as they seem sometimes.

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Evolution. The church claims to accept evolution, but not really. The church believes in a hybrid model. The hybrid model is just a constant attempt to sneak a god into the gaps.

Biology. Homosexuality, female fertility, embryonic development, absolutely everything at all about contraceptives.

See? A short list. Catholics aren’t as bad as other Christian groups.

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Glad you can see the difference still.
You treat science like a god. It is not. Science can only investigate the natural world. It says nothing about the spiritual world, nor can it. It has nothing to say about God. God is beyond oits domain.
The church accepts on the basis of current scientific evidence that evolution is a fact – not all Catholics do. But that God set evolution in motion. The church is not atheist and it will never adopt an atheistic position on evolution. It’s like asking a cat to be a dog.
The church does not accept biology?
Homosexuality? What is scientific about that? Other than it has a herd of negative outcomes, everywhere you look.
What about female fertility? or contraceptives? The church teaches abstinence. For good reason. Man becomes a slave of his sexual appetite. Pornography, promiscuity, etc result in so many broken marriages, broken kids, broken people.
Embryonic development is playing with fire. Do your research. IVF babies have endless health issues. Speak to a teacher – an impartial one.

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Oh! And Transsubstantiation! I’m glad you said all that, because you reminded me of transsubstantiation.

You are correct, science can only deal with the natural world. It can only explain the natural world.

If your god never treads foot on the natural world, then you are right that science can neither confirm or deny anything about your god.

But your god treads on the natural world every week! Transsubstantiation is a specific, natural world claim that can be checked and verified!

Transsubstantiation is false. Baloney. Fake. Not real. Made up. A lie. Scientifically testable, and demonstrably incorrect.

A cracker before, a cracker after. You can check weight, feel, texture, brittleness, water soluability, flexibility, Ph, hardness, conductivity, ductility, elasticity, melting point, and even the DNA! If Catholicism is true, all of these tests would verify a change from a cracker to human tissue after priestly mumbling. But it is not true. Cracker before, cracker after. Also, wine before, wine after.

If your god does stuff in our world, we can test for it. Yet despite thousands of claims of deity-induced phenomenon in our world, exactly zero results. So please, never use that lame excuse again.

All the other things you got wrong will have to wait. Need sleep, and probably should shift the convo elsewhere.

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“Transsubstantiation is a specific, natural world claim that can be checked and verified!”
It cannot be checked and verified! Unless there is a miracle at a particular place and time. I’m surprised you do not know that, having grown up Catholic. What else do you not know about the church?
The “accidents” of bread and wine DO NOT CHANGE.

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Our last few posts have been the best, and I think it may be time to stop before we fall back into bickering; I have given you a lot to think and read about, if you want to, and we’ll probably come across each other again. Till then, so long.

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A few more things for you to ponder:

1. Promiscuity
– Highly promiscuous and hedonistic lifestyle. Source: e.g. Gay authors Silverstein & White, “The Joy of Gay Sex”, Dan Savage, Kirk and Madsen, “After the Ball”
– Kinsey report – 28% had over 1000 partners in a lifetime, almost half 500 or more
– Less than 8% are long term relationships (at least 4 years)
– Gay marriage/ long term relationship does not generally presuppose or include monogamy (Dennis Altman)
– Result – more STD transmission
2. Unhealthy sexual practices
– Bestiality – sex with animals – much higher rates
– E.g sado-masochism, homosexual males 37%, heterosexual males 5%,
– AIDS, Syphilis,
– Rectal specialist Dr. Bernard J Klamecki – unhealthy practices affect oral cavities, lungs, penis, bladder, penis prostate anus perianal areas rectum colon vagina uterus pelvic are brain skin blood immune system and others
– Higher % of drug and alcohol use
– More likely to smoke
– Many studies e.g. California Quality of Life Survey: higher levels of psychological distress
– Older men 50-70 higher rates of diabetes, high blood pressure, physical disability
– Twice as likely to have cancer
– Lesbians – highest concentration of risk factors for breast cancer and many of the gynaecological cancers of any subset of women;

3. Violence
– Gay men: Domestic violence nearly double the general population
– Lesbians – survey of 1000 participants, slightly more that half reported abuse

4. Pedophilia
– Strong links
– Calls for normalisation in gay literature
– Random study of sexually molested children – one third homosexually molested
– Homosexual pedophiles – average 120 victims/ heterosexual 20 victims
etc, etc, etc.
I do agree with jonnycatholic that we should exit this thread.

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Water, it is clear you don’t understand sex. I say that with all due respect.

Right now, in the USA, the demographic that leads all others in divorce, cheating on their spouse, gay porn, teenage pregnancy, abortions, unsafe sexual practices, and pedophelia are bible belt Christians.

But I could talk statistics all day, it was kinda part of my Masters program. But yep, we can take it elsewhere.

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You will never find God in what other people say about him, it may start you thinking, but you will not find him there. The only way one ever finds God is within, where he speaks to our heart. Until you can hear him there you will never know him. And he will not force himself on you. If you ever seek him sincerely, he will make his presence known to you, within.
Arguing with theists will just not cut it.

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Eh, I was an absolutely true believing Christian for a while. I also used to believe in Santa Claus. Turns out, my reason for believing in both of them was exactly the same. Exactly. I was told it was true, and fooling myself without good evidence.

I dont expect to “find god” talking to theists. I mean, if any theist ever anywhere were able to show me the goods, then hey, I’d join that religion in a heartbeat. But in reality, theists of all stripes, flat earthers, conspiracy theorists, astrologers, psychics, and con men all use the same arguments, just with a different wrapper. It doesn’t prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that god is fake, but it certainly fits the bill.

Also, your god seems oddly unable to do pretty much anything. So even if he were real, not a very impressive type. I can think of lots of human beings that have done way more. I don’t worship them either.

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Water, it wasnt any one moment, so no specific age. But basically, it went like this.

I learned that Santa Claus was fake. At some point, I noticed that the reason I believed in Santa is the same reason people believe in God.

I learned that astrology is fake. I also realized that people believe in astrology for the same reason people believe in God.

I met people of completely different religions that believed strongly in their gods, for exactly the same reasons Christians believe in theirs.

More examples of this type, but basically I realized that people believed in god for really bad and wrong reasons. So I wanted to find good reasons.

I never found a good reason to believe in god.

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I remember the moment I recognized that the term “atheist” actually met my non-belief in a god. But I hadn’t called myself a Christian for many years by that point. As I noted elsewhere on this comment thread, the Christian god is clearly not real. But I was in no hurry to rule a higher power out.

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I am resubmitting this answer as it did not come up as a reply to you:

Well, I suppose in the end it comes down to the one thing: Faith. And you can’t prove that to anyone.
Some have faith in communism, some in their politicians, some in their parents, some in their own judgements (including atheism) others in God, or their version of God.
That you have faith in atheism is clear.
I suppose perhaps some people don’t bother and bumble through life aimlessly.

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Sure. LOTS of people bumble their way through life, of all sorts of belief systems. But that’s where our agreement ends. Faith is belief in something without evidence. Atheism is not believing because there is no evidence. Atheism is a lack of faith That you would even say that an atheist has faith demonstrates your clear misunderstanding of what that means.

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Water, it goes even deeper than that. I HAVE had religious experiences. But so have people with completely different, completely competing religions. They can not all be right. So something else must be going on. At LEAST some people must be having experiences and chalking them up to a deity, but are actually incorrect. So I talk to a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Janist, Zoroastrian, or someone feom any number of other religions, and they all talk about their personal experience. Somebody is wrong.

For example, do you believe people are being kidnapped by aliens?

And since it was a two-part question, yes, many atheists, myself included, are upset that people of religion try to inject their silly beliefs on the rest of us, and most especially when it hurts education, public health, or other such issues.

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I’m resending the comment below. I seem to be good at not replying directly to your comments, and it ends up at the bottom of the thread.
“You make a very good point. But I think that you are missing something. People share a common humanity, and in my belief, God speaks to each one of us in our heart, as well as through our conscience. So everyone has some experience of God – which they may reject – and their culture, circumstances, local religions, etc all have a part in shaping their individual belief systems. So it is possible to have a good Buddhist, Muslim, pagan, etc.
As to “people of religion try to inject their silly beliefs on the rest of us”, I think this argument doesn’t cut, atheist don’t get mad at communists trying to inject their ideology into others, or the opposing political party, etc. No, there is a particular angst that atheists feel about religion. And that is a good word, because it exposes their insecurity or anxiety, despite all their vehement claims to the contrary.”

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Water, yeah, I am not clear how the whole reply thing works exactly….

People share a common humanity… Yes. Yes they do. This humanity trancends religious, cultural, regional, and political divisions. This is the complete opposite of humanity being dependent on one particular version. That Janists also don’t kill each other demonstrates any monotheistic claims against murder as baseless.

This is very strong evidence that morality is not dependent on any particular religion. All people in the world, no matter where, what religion, or how remote, share basic morality and humanity.

Now, the bible as a moral guide is just horrible. Just the worst. Nobody at all actually follows the bible version of morality, because they would be locked up. It is disgusting. If I followed biblical rules to the letter regarding morality, I would be a moral shitbag.

For example, owning humans as property is wrong, and illegal in almost every country in the world. The bible may be wishy-washy about a lot of things, but on the subject of slavery it is crystal clear. Owning humans for life is okay.

So, yes. Religious ideas are actually pretty silly.

Communists? What the hell silly religious idea are you going for here? You just literally proved my point. Your inability to understand the difference between religion, politics, economics, nationality, and public policy is a grand example of the nonsense I speak of.

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What’s a “monotheistic claims against murder”?
We are definitely getting closer now. I’m not sure who claims that morality is dependent on a particular religion.

You say: “Now, the bible as a moral guide is just horrible.” This shows that you have absolutely no conception what the bible teaches about morality. But none. If you want to know what the bible teaches about morality, go to Jesus, who sets up a new moral order.

Matthew 5:21 ‘”You have heard how it was said to our ancestors, You shall not kill; and if anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court.

22 BUT I SAY THIS TO YOU, anyone who is angry with a brother will answer for it before the court”
Matthew 5:27 ‘You have heard how it was said, You shall not commit adultery.

28 BUT I SAY THIS TO YOU, if a man looks at a woman lustfully, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Matthew 5:38 ‘You have heard how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.

39 BUT I SAY THIS TO YOU: offer no resistance to the wicked. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;”
Matthew 5:43 ‘You have heard how it was said, You will love your neighbour and hate your enemy.

44 BUT I SAY THIS TO YOU, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

Jesus rewrites the old order. If you haven’t got that there’s no way forward.

I see you know very little history as well. Christians are the ones who did away with slavery in the Roman empire.

You have not answered my point about communists indoctrinating everyone with their ideology. Just some bland accusations.

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You are quick on the draw aren’t you?
Do you sometimes think before you speak?
The old testament is the story of a primitive people that God gradually draws to himself and little by little weans them of their immoral ways. It is not a set of rules for all eternity. If you have not grasped that, you are shrouded in ignorance.

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Water, I just let you interpret it, and twice now you have attempted to distance yourself from it. Not only that, but your interpretation is different than others.

So no. I don’t have to interpret anything. I just let the religious folks interpret it in something like 30,000 different versions now to know y’all are confused.

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Sure. Either the bible is an absolute moral guide (as claimed by many Christians) or it isn’t.

You clearly don’t think it is. You have already attempted to explain away immoral godly rules of the Old Testament.

I mean, I think your excuses are crap, to be clear. But even if your excuses are brilliant logically and theologically sound excuses, it still shows that morality is not an absolute moral guide in any sense.

At best, you could call it a cautionary tale for instructive purposes.

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Well, I break down many of the issues in my blog just because there is too much to unpack in a comment thread.

But that doesn’t change the fact that the bible either is or is not absolute morality. You and I both agree it is not.

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Well, I don’t believe in absolute morality, so I guess it is up to others to offer a definition.

But again, it is obvious that neither of us uses the bible in anything at all resembling absolute morality. I’d say we probably find 90% of it outdated and even immoral. So clearly, if there is absolute morality somewhere, that isn’t it.

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The fact that some of of the old testament is in your words “outdated”, takes nothing away from its authority as a moral compass. Part of the problem is that you treat everything the bible says on an equal footing, making a nonsense out of it.

Leave interpretation of the bible to those who have the competence to interpret it.

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Hey, you are the one that already discounted hard Mosaic laws. I’m just reflecting on it. If the word of your god, as allegedly reported accurately, can be discounted for updated, modern morality, then you have already made my case.

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Well, I suppose in the end it comes down to the one thing: Faith. And you can’t prove that to anyone.
Some have faith in communism, some in their politicians, some in their parents, some in their own judgements (including atheism) others in God, or their version of God.
That you have faith in atheism is clear.
I suppose perhaps some people don’t bother and bumble through life aimlessly.

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You make a very good point. But I think that you are missing something. People share a common humanity, and in my belief, God speaks to each one of us in our heart, as well as through our conscience. So everyone has some experience of God – which they may reject – and their culture, circumstances, local religions, etc all have a part in shaping their individual belief systems. So it is possible to have a good Buddhist, Muslim, pagan, etc.
As to “people of religion try to inject their silly beliefs on the rest of us”, I think this argument doesn’t cut, atheist don’t get mad at communists trying to inject their ideology into others, or the opposing political party, etc. No, there is a particular angst that atheists feel about religion. And that is a good word, because it exposes their insecurity or anxiety, despite all their vehement claims to the contrary.

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We’re just going round in circles.
Just to give some examples: The bible teaches that there is one God, who made heaven and earth, that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, who came down from heaven for the salvation of men, that by the Holy Spirit he was incarnate of the virgin Mary, that he will come back to judge the living and the dead. That together with the Father and the son the Holy Spirit is worshipped and glorified. That there is a resurrection from the dead and life everlasting. That the just will be rewarded and the wicked punished.
Now the bible teaches these as absolute truths, whether you believe it or not.

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I believe that the Bible is God’s revelation to man of who he is and of who God is. It sets out a moral guide initially for a primitive people which God leads to himself, and with the coming of Christ the fullness of the truth is revealed.
The bible has to be interpreted as a whole, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and of the constant Tradition of the church.
Any Tom Dick and Harry is unlikely to understand it. If it is approached in the right spirit, God will gradually reveal its true meaning.

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Water, once again, you have demonstrated that the bible is not an absolute moral code. Situations matter. And there is no biblical resolution to these moral questions. Bible god literally orders slavery and genocide and sex trafficking of teenage girls. You say this was a learning process.

I reject this outright. I believe two things which I ask for a reply.

1) human slavery, genocide, and sex trafficking are never correct under any circumstances. Why do you believe otherwise? I want bible references only, please.

2) Your god gave 613 commandments, many punishable by death, that include the absolute orders to chop off the end of everyone’s penis, what days to pray and how, what clothes and what color they should be to wear at certain occasions, how to wear your hair, what can and can not be eaten and when, when to kill your children, when you can and can not have sex with people by race, familial relation, and ownership of said person, certain things you can and can not look at, how long you can’t touch a woman on the rag, and the right way to cook lamb. Given the level of specificity on nearly every aspect of human life, I believe that the inclusion of slavery, genocide, and sex trafficking would have been easy to add, and would have saved millions upon millions of people feom needless suffering. I believe that the people at the time, freshly freed from slavery themselves, could not see the merit in not owning people as slaves, but willingly obeyed orders to chop the end of their dick off, means your god missed probably the most important moral turning point in all time. His failure to recognize an opportunity to do the right thing, but completely botched it, continues to cause pain, suffering, and death to this very day. That is what I believe. What say you?

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Well, no, but I do find that one particularly funny. Some poor farmer gets his nuts popped by a cow and suddenly he is never allowed to go to church again? Odd as hell.

But no, I was talking about circumcision. Nowadays, it is a fairly clean surgical procedure, albeit completely unnecessary. But 200 years ago and before? It was to risk the life of the infant for who the hell knows what reason. Yet god not only ordered it, but damned near killed Moses because his kid hadn’t been chopped yet.

Luckily, Moses’ wife chopped it off real quick and threw the tip at gods feet, who not only appreciated a bloody bit of foreskin, but he also remembered that he wanted Moses to do a whole bunch of genocide and child sex trafficking later, so he spared him.

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Well then I’m confused. You asked about genocode and sex trafficking like it was a ridiculous idea, but it is a key part of a significant part of the bible.

I mean, if I talked about Darth Vader in Star Wars, and you acted like that was a part for an extra, I’d question if you had seen any of the movies. Darth is the prime antagonist for the first trilogy, the prequel trilogy is just the Darth back story, and the final trilogy is reconciling the fizzure of the force that Darth set up.

Genocide and sex trafficking was how bible god gave the Hebrews their land, that they continue to lay claim to this very day. Without genocide and sex trafficking, the holy land doesn’t even belong to the Jews. Abraham was from Ur, in southern present day Iraq. Hell, the first Commandment literally includes a list of the entire civilizations that god genocided and sex trafficked for the Hebrews.

So, pardon my skepticism, but are you sure you actually read the bible, in order, from page 1 to page 1217 (in mine, anyway)? You didn’t read it as “daily devotionals” where you read about 2 sentences at a time and jump around?

Was it a picture bible?

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Yeah, so now I really doubt you read it. But sure. Here is a quick few of them.

1. The Flood (Genesis 6-8)
2. The cities of the plain, including Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18-19)
3. The Egyptian firstborn sons during the Passover (Exodus 11-12)
4. The Canaanites under Moses and Joshua (Numbers 21:2-3; Deuteronomy 20:17; Joshua 6:17, 21)
5. The Amalekites annihilated by Saul (1 Samuel 15)

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Thanks for the references. Is that all you can come up with?
You fail to grasp the idea that man has moral responsibilities. If someone murders, he is held accountable for it. If he steals, he is punished for it. That is plain common sense.
The other thing is that you have an anthropomorphic idea of God (though you do not believe in him). In other words God is somehow to be judged like a man, and is on the same level as man.
You like the idea (though you do not believe it) that God created you, and to get all the benefits that flow from that, but you refuse to accept responsibility for your actions; you deny God’s justice. You’ll have his love and mercy if you are granted licence to act as you will, and that others be granted the same privilege.

If you stay on that trajectory, the retribution will be great indeed!

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Water, don’t threaten me. It is childish and unwarranted.

No, that is not all I can come up with. There is plenty more. But how much genocide do you need? How many people must be slaughtered in the name of a land dispute? What if that was your family? What if Mormonism is the right answer, so your own family was slaughtered before your eyes and all the pre-teen girls were taken from you to be sex slaves?

How many times should someone rape a pre-teen girl before it is “enough” for you?

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spartan, it is not a threat, it is a rational conclusion. In your world people can do anything they like with impunity. In ours, there are consequences for everyone’s actions.

You’d make a great armchair critic. The world then was nothing like what we have today, in the west at least.

By the way, give me a quote for these sex slaves you talk about.

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No, it is a threat. If you had a real argument, you wouldn’t have to resort to insinuating I’ll be punished.

How many times must a pre-teen girl get raped before it is “enough” for you?

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Water, now I’m really skeptical you’ve read the bible. Very, very skeptical. I’m going to ask again, and I want an honest answer. Have you actually read the bible, just starting at the beginning and reading it like a book all the way through?

It’s okay if you have not, but it would help me when I respond if I know how familiar you are with the subject.

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So why do you need me to tell you what you should already know?

Eh, here goes:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children.  “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.”  Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan…..Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. 

They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards.  When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!  

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men.  All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle.  They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.  Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. 

But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded.  “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.  I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor.  He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.  You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’

“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. 

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst.  And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. 

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A. Your Quote: “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.”

My translation, adding a few verses: Exodus 21:7-11 “7 If a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not leave as male slaves do.8 If she does not please her master who intended her for himself, he must let her be bought back: he has not the right to sell her to foreigners, for this would be a breach of faith with her.9 If he intends her for his son, he must treat her as custom requires daughters to be treated.10 If he takes another wife, he must not reduce the food, clothing or conjugal rights of the first one.11 Should he deprive her of these three things she will leave a free woman, without paying compensation.”

A. I don’t approve of people selling their daughters as slaves, but the additional verses give a completely different story than your truncated quotation. As I said earlier, God is gradually weaning a primitive people from their bad practices.

B: You quote Judges 21:10 onwards. “So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan…..Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives.
They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!”

This is recorded history, it is not an injunction to practice this kind of behaviour. If you read verse 25 this is quite clear: “25 In those days there was no king in Israel, and everyone did as he saw fit.”
This will have to do for now. I’ll get back to your other quotes later.

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No, Water. I wouldn’t bother with any other of the verses. You just tried to make an excuse for a FATHER sex trafficking his own daughter. I could care less if the reason she doesn’t have to be a whore after 7 years is one thing or another or why. I care that you flippantly don’t give a damn that your bible god specifically gave orders on how to sex traffic their own daughters. You wantee sex trafficking in the bible, I gave it to you. I gave you multiple that were not “bad people”, but literally following god’s orders, or actual orders from god.

Do you have daughters? How much can I give you to fuck one of them?

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You can be pig headed if you want to be. These are not instructions applicable to Christians today.
A little history about the evils that prevailed in those days might help you. But then, armchair critics aren’t that good at using reason, and anyway they’ve made up their minds already.
That’s the end of my contribution to this polemic.

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Water, thank you for your contribution. For the record, I don’t believe you actually think it is okay to sex traffic teenage girls. However, you believe in this bible god character, and when you found out that he sex traffics teenage girls, you were forced to contort yourself to make that okay, or else you would have to admit your god was either not good or not real.

You chose poorly. To this day, you are forced by your decision to defend the worst possible crimes against humanity, in deference to an invisible, magic man that you have never met, but been promised by others. I hope you consider the insanity of that. Good luck, and cheers.

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